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MCT's AW11 ....... 224rwkw @ 20psi

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MCT_MR2
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Saturday, July 05, 2014 3:35 AM (permalink)
+2 (2)
I have another printout for comparison between the last time i had the car on the dyno versus the current setup, and instead of boost i had nm of torque put up instead.
 

 
I tweaked the suspension today and damper settings, and also remembered to hook up my tacho,which now works perfectly.
 
As for driving it, the car has a lot more urge off boost and is more driveably again compared to how it used to be. I think the next thing i will save for is bigger wheels and tyres, as
A. i have never liked the wheels on the car, and
B. I need more tyre under the car, as traction is a bit of a love hate relationship now.
 
There are rims that came out a little while ago, that i would really love to get, but it will be a case of justifying the money for them....
 

They are glow star wheels, which are a collaboration between work and star road. They are a touch more than work equips, and a bit harder to source, but these would be amazing.
 
I would like to ultimately try and fit a 225/45r15 under the back, but i have a feeling that may require flares.
 
Either way it will be a while away, so for now i will haveto just dream.

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
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Paw11
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Saturday, July 05, 2014 6:35 AM (permalink)
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http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=438361

The guy in the link above is claiming to have 225/45 r 15 s on 15x9s under standard (rolled) guards.

It gets you thinking

P
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MCT_MR2
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Saturday, July 05, 2014 8:05 AM (permalink)
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Thanks for the link. Im a bit surprised at the +36 offset though, that would be quite close to the struts, so coilovers would not clear by a long shot.

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Saturday, July 05, 2014 5:36 PM (permalink)
+1 (1)
Congrats on the new power figure! I'm looking forward to getting mine up over 200.

Those wheels are lovely. Didn't even know they exist until you posted them.

I've read of a few people running wide rear tyres. Pretty sure someone is running a 245 with standard gaurds. I think they are 16 or 17 inch tho.
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Saturday, July 05, 2014 5:41 PM (permalink)
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Sunday, July 06, 2014 7:19 AM (permalink)
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Thanks mate. Your only a turbo and.maybe a tune away from getting up over the 200kw mark.

Those wheels posted only came out 10-12 months ago, and arent widley distributed. 7tune claim to be exclusive distributors for them.

I'll have to measure the space in the guards etc and spend some time working it all out. Ill need to run an 8.5-9 inch wheel with the 225 I think.

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
#81

MCT_MR2
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Saturday, August 08, 2015 7:10 AM (permalink)
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Wow, so it's been over 12 months without an update.
 
Car has run flawless over the past 12 months, need nothing more than servicing and a few sets of rear tyres.
 
About 8 months ago i picked up a bride seat rail off the forum here, and put in an old fixed back bride seat i had lying around, it made life so much better than sliding around the tired old seat. The stock seat also had a little bit of black in the backrest, so it was getting a little bit uncomfortable to drive in.
 
In other news, i decided to upgrade the ECU in my car. There was nothing wrong with my old ecu, but for a few bits an pieces i wanted to do in the future, and with a few ideas i wanted to try out in regards to how the car runs. So i decided to upgrade to this:
 

 
Its amazing how small ecu's are getting these days. My old ecu has been sold off already, and is now running a v8 ski boat somewhere in echuca. I chose to run a GPA licence with my ecu, as i don't have a use for antilag and launch control (that said, there are ways to setup launch control without having the specific GPR package.)
 
I also fitted up an LTC module, and now have full time closed loop lambda control, and fitted up a knock sensor on the car, and have closed loop knock control. The cool thing with these ecus, is that you can monitor 4 different frequencies, and monitor them simulationous, and choose which frequencies, or all of them activate the knock control. I bunched the frequencies all round the knock frequency of my engine.
 
I also chose to run dual map sensors. One is fed by the inlet manifold, and is the primary load source for the engine, and i am running a second one pre intercooler as a boost pressure sensor. The boost sensor is the one referenced for the boost control, and it is also a handy way of monitoring pressure drop across the intercooler.
 
Interestingly enough, it has stopped my compressor surge onto boost, which turned out was probably caused by pressure drop across my frozen boost intercooler. At .8bar, the difference between the boost sensor and the inlet sensor was 3kpa, at 1.1bar it was 11kpa, and at 1.3bar it was 23kpa.
 

 
So back onto the dyno the car went. Over a few days doing an hour here and there and a couple of hours after hours i got the car back up and running on the M130. Now due to united deciding to scrap their 100 octane pump fuel, i lost some power from timing (2 degrees timing is worth 10kw at the wheels in my car) and after the found inefficiency of the intercooler setup, i have backed the car down a bit. Now i am at [link=mailto:205rwkw@18psi]205rwkw@18psi[/link].
 

 
But the difference with the new ECU is insane. The car starts quicker and easier than before, it starts quicker and better than a stock car with standard ecu. Idle control is a lot more advanced and steady, and the drivability has actually improved a lot. If it wasn't for the idle, driving it you would not know the head is over ported, or that it is running cams as big as it is. Fuel economy has improved a touch, which is also a bonus.
 
So now the plans are for doing a bit of intercooler shopping, and working out what i can do without taking up any of my boot, and i will eventually set the car up to run flex fuel, where i will see how far i can get away with, before i get to the point of diminishing gains.

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
#82
WIDEMR
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Saturday, August 08, 2015 1:38 PM (permalink)
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Nice work Nathan
 
Interesting regarding the dual map sensors, i was planning running several IATs but didnt think about pressures.
 
You would say that knock is much better on a M1 than say hundred series with SKM?
#83
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Saturday, August 08, 2015 2:28 PM (permalink)
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We decided to run dual pressure sensors, as the m1 series are really well setup for it, and running an efr turbo, i was running it into surge fairly easily.

As for your idea of running multiple iat sensors, it can be done easily, but in race scenarios, you will find the air temps get a little bit high for prolonged operation of the sensor. I did run a pre cooler iat sensor at one point a while ago, and saw temps in the 130c range for a while (king lake run) which are not great for sensor life.

You may be a bit better off running a k type thermocouple, as delco air temp sensors don't like really high temps.

As for knock m1 vs hundred series, i cant really say how much better it works, in part as i wired pre seminar before we learnt about running both pins into the inputs and running it as a differential sensor.

But as it is intergrated into the ecu, it is more naitive and user friendly. Having the 4 frequencies makes it faster and more accurate to get the knock control working in the frequency range. Having it setup in a worksheet instead of adjusting jumpers makes life easier. And also being able to spread your active knock over 4 frequencies is a nice feature, so you can for instance moniter over a 1k or 2k range around the engines knock frequency instead of just at a set frequency.

Not having to use gold wave to help dial in a frequency is brilliant on its own. Not a fan of listening and watching spectrographs to work out engine harmonics.

Stepper motor idle control is a million times better than it was in the hundred series (im running the 1.4 beta package that isnt public release yet, but you may have played with it at the seminar) and dbw is also a lot better (obviously im not running it........ yet. I am thinking about it, sheerly because i can)

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
#84
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RE: MCT's AW11 - The flex fuel nugget Sunday, October 02, 2016 3:12 AM (permalink)
+1 (1)
Welcome back, its time for my annual update!!!
 
To bring you up and quickly cover everything up until the last few months, I spun no1 big end bearing in december overtaking a truck. I heard it and shut the car down quite quickly, so next to no damage occurred. A light linish on number 1 was all that was required with some 2000grit wet n dry to fix it, and all other bearing were okay, indicating the oil pump got a big gulp of air oil surging, and combined with the load at the time (3rd gear, full boost) the bearing literally exploded. I have since changed the main bearings over too King XP bearings, as they were easier to source just before christmas, and i've had good results with them on subarus, so i thought i'd give them a go.
 
Outside of that, it has been regular maintenance, and a set of tyres.
 
A while ago, Dave101 approached me about testing a gauge set for him, to give some feedback about the kit (see his 10 in 1 gauge set in the for sale section) Seeing as you can never have too much information available to you in regards to your engine (within reason), i jumped at the opportunity. Seeing as they are largely going to be sold to the mr2 community, i thought i would cover the install a little bit, and provide some alternatives for the gauges, as some things can be used in more than one way, just to get people thinking.
 

 
Above is the gauge kit as i received it. Fit and finish of the kit is of a high standard, and all the sensors seem to be of a high quality, especially at the price point of the unit. This was a sample unit, so it will be 99% the same as what he will be selling, save for some minor updates.
 

 
The units pressure sensors are of a reasonable size. Here is one of the kits fluid pressure sensors (left) vs one of my motec pressure sensors (right). I also tested these sensors against mechanical test gauges.
 

 
After a bit of thinking, i decided on mounting the unit in the cabin, behind the passengers seat. It is the happy medium point between the gauge, and all the sensors. It is protected against heat and vibration, as well as from moisture (at least, as protected as it can get in an old targa top model haha). I have mounted the unit on a plate, and attached the units boost pressure sensor on the plate, as i already have a vac line into the car for a mechanical gauge.
 

 
Toyota must have seen into the future for my plans, as there are two brackets behind the firewall carpet that were just perfect for me to setup some mounting studs for the unit. i slotted the carpet in my install, to allow quick access to the wiring, as this is a sample unit, and i wanted easy access. targa panels will still clear the unit, although the passengers seat needs to be about an inch further forward than before the unit was there, and care needs to be taken putting the targas in there when the unit is mounted there.
 

 
The fuel sensor i mounted off the top of the fuel filter in my install, as i wanted it mounted on the body side for vibration protection, and it was a convenient location. I have AN6 fuel lines, so i used a tee adapter, as the sensor thread is 1/8 npt.
 

 
The kit also comes with an egt sensor. This sensor has worked surprisingly well, and i have been quite happy with it. The mounting section is a bit on the bulky side compared to what i'm used to working with, but thats not an issue. It is a larger 1/4in diameter probe, and for ease of install, it has a 1/8th npt thread at the base of the gas probe fitting. In the case of my installation, i have fitted it into the dump pipe, but if i were using it on a supercharged aw11 for instance, i would consider using it as a supercharger outlet sensor, as the outlet temps are too hot for a conventional air temp sensor.
 

 
Please ignore the bad welding. I fitted it in the dump pipe, about 100mm from the v band. In a turbo application, i would only recommend it here, and not pre turbo, as the sensor is rated for 800c continual use. depending on backpressure, the difference in exhaust temp pre and post turbo can be well over 100c, and in the case of my car, i have regularly seen the sensor hit over 700c.
 

 
For oil pressure and temp, i had 2 spare ports in my remote filter setup. On a standard car, i would highly recommend the use of a sandwich plate adapter, and not the use of tee pieces on the factory oil pressure sensor port in the block. Again, for mine, the vibration insulation of having them mounted on the body side is a big thumbs up, as it ensures a longer trouble free life for the sensor.
 

 
Water temp, in my case has been set up as a temporary setup. i drilled and tapped the water outlet on the back of the head, and sealed the threads with loctite 577. This put the sensor as close to my ecu's water temp sensor as possible for testing purposes. As i don't have temp issues with the car, and i can use the factory gauge on the dash and oil temp as reference, i will be moving this water temp sensor into my intercooler water system, when i have finished testing and assessing the unit for dave, as i will use it to help determine when my wta coolant is actually heatsoaked, and i should back off. The car already has multiple failsafes setup in the ecu to prevent damaging the engine, but a little mechanical sympathy reminder goes a really long way to long happy motoring.
 

 
The unit is really clear, direct sunlight on the unit does make it quite hard to read, but that is to be expected. I have my warnings etc all setup, and the unit can be switched between kpa and psi, so you can run your preference. I havent played with the record function yet, as i have a lot of logging in my ecu, but i believe that you can record for around 3 minutes. The unit will also be available bundled with a wideband unit. I already have a can based wideband controller on my car, but was not able to setup and test this with the gauge set, as i was unable to provide an analogue 1-5v signal to the unit.
 

 

 
I confirmed the accuracy on all the sensors over the period of a few weeks, and confirmed them against already fitted electronic sensors on the car, and mechanical shop test equipment too. Temp sensors were accurate to within 1.5c, which is pretty standard accuracy (they favour high, which is always preferred) pressure sensors are accurate to roughly the same 1.5%. I had to adjust the calibration slightly on one of the sensors to get it to read correctly, but that is something that can easily be adjusted in the control unit.
 
This brings me to the next part of the story for the car, where a simple testing of gauges, ended with me spending a bit of money on the car. See below for part 2......
 
 
 
post edited by MCT_MR2 - Sunday, October 02, 2016 4:18 AM

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
#85
MCT_MR2
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Sunday, October 02, 2016 5:39 AM (permalink)
+2 (2)
Now as i mentioned, the simple fitting of gauges ended up costing me a bit of money. I should now elaborate. For years now, on both my M84 and the M130 ecu, we have had quite odd and non traditional and linear fuel maps. We had always put it down to the big cams, huge overlap due to the way i have the cams dialled in and excessive porting. Furthermore when the car was taken for long drives, whether it be hard drives or freeway cruising, the car ran a bit rough like it was heatsoaked.
 
Now i should have known better, as in my line of work, i often see issues with big fuel pumps and standard fuel pressure regulators causing all kinds of issues for light load driving, idle quality etc. Now at first, i wasn't sure if it was the gauge assembly causing me issues, or whether it was actually an issue with my fuel pressure. Several simple tests (ie. with a fuel pressure gauge connected, let the car settle into idle, and remove the vac source from the fuel pressure regulator. when you do this, your fuel pressure should increase. If it doesn't, there is an issue with the fuel reg bypassing enough fuel to control the pressure accurately.)
 
My car was actually a bit more extreme, i assume that it has a compromised diaphragm, as it wasn't able to keep the correct fuel pressure at full boost, in fact, i would only have 25-30psi higher fuel pressure than the boost pressure (21psi). Why is this an issue?? well, when your injector has been designed to have an effective spray pattern at 45psi of fuel pressure, it often loses that pattern, and kind of spits and splatters when it is given less pressure (like 25-30psi).
 
Now some of you might say "hang on, he said he had 25-30 psi above the boost pressure, so that is 46-51psi". Yes, but that is where differential pressure comes into play. When the engine has 20psi of boost pressure, you have 20psi of air pressure effectively trying to push the fuel back into the injector, so your 51psi of fuel pressure is only coming out of the injector with 30 psi of effort, and you end up with a terrible spray pattern, which means the fuel doesnt mix with the air effectively, and you have an engine more prone to detonation. This is also known as differential pressure, as it is the difference between the fuel rail pressure and the manifold pressure. It is a dynamic value, and is basically used to check that the fuel system is staying in step with the manifold pressure. I was lucky, particularly at my power level, most likely due to my closed loop knock and wideband fuel control, covering for my ghastly oversite.
 

 
Thats where this little guy came in. I bit the bullet, and purchased a v2 turbosmart fpr800. Beautiful, solid unit, and are effective as anything. The V2 units are the only ones you should buy, so if you see units for sale that are V1, don't touch them, as they had some control issues with them (Read RobK's showroom thread for an example.)
 

 
To make this unit work, i also purchased a tomei rail adapter, and fitted a motec (honeywell) 250psi pressure sensor into the fuel rail where the cold start injector feed line used to live. I decided that i wanted the fuel pressure to be fed into the ecu for 2 reasons, 1. because the m130 uses a volumetric efficiency fuel model, fuel pressure is a strong part of that model, in the form of differential pressure (explained earlier), and 2. i wanted to setup more safeguards in the car.
 

 
I set the reg up on the drivers side rear strut tower, next to the vent fan. sheerly to keep it a little bit out of sight, and because the car is a bit space poor. Now, I'm sure some of you are wondering, how much difference could the fuel pressure make to the tune? Well in my case, a lot. You will see below a picture of my fuel map that i started to retune set on compare, were you can see the difference in the load sites. As my fuel table is VE, the numbers arent a pulsewidth, or an injection value in milliseconds, but it is a calculated engine efficiency value as a percentage.
 

 
As you can see, it was a huge difference. Actually compared to the finished file, it ended up being ridiculous. Now, seeing as I was in for such a drastic retune, i decided to bit the bullet and start toying with some things i had been wanting to try for a while - flex fuel. Due to the mr2's tiny fuel tank, and the fact that the car is a daily driven unit, i didn't ever want a loss of functionality with the car, so i had never tuned it on E85. But since Motec had released firmware with their completed flex fuel model i decided to jump at the opportunity.
 

 
Enter the previously mentioned hole in the wallet. New 950cc bosch injectors with all stainless internals, the fuel pressure reg, adapters and a fuel composition sensor. I put everything in the car, setup everything in the engine ecu, and prepared to tune the car. I decided my base map would be on pump fuel, and decided to begin to tune the car. As i was going through my cars gentle paces, i noticed my intake air temp was abnormally high. So i brought the car to a halt, and checked the intercooler setup. Low on water - easy enough to fix, and i had been a touch slack on topping the system up of late. So i began to fill the system up, only to be greeted with the horrid sound of water leaking from the front of the car. Long story short, the water pump in the system had a shaft seal failure, like my last one. now im pretty sure that has to do with my near straight water use in the intercooler system, as coolant is often also a seal lubricant. So my fault, but a really disheartening thing, as it meant i was up for even more money. I tried a reseal of the unit in 2 different methods, but unfortunately both were unsucessful, so i wont go into detail. Enter the new and shiny water pump:
 

 
Going with the mantra that got the car to the point that it is now: if it breaks, make it bigger - I went t source a replacement pump. As luck would have it, davis craig have introduced a new, bigger model for the ewp80 - the ewp 130. Improvements include: alloy construction, larger internal passages and a shorter shaft assembly, which im hoping wih the use of coolant additives to help, will be many more years of trouble free motoring. If not, it has a 2 year warranty, and this time the receipt will not be lost.
 

 
So tuning began, and my knock control again saved my lack of paying attention. Being so sidetracked with everything else, i forgot to guesstomate the top end of the map, and a wastegate pressure pull ended with a massive leanout up top, and the ecu saving the engine from a catastrophic failure.
 
Now this is the point i hoped I would have an amazing story about a new amazing power figure of tyre shredding glory, but alas, it is not. Between the expense of bearing failure, fuel regs, injectors and the conservativity of pending old age, i decided to turn the car down a touch. I have also noticed that the intercooler is for lack of a better word hopeless. Pressure drop across the core begins to increase exponentially after 15psi of boost. Also the effectiveness of the core is dropping terribly. At 15psi, a 4th gear full throttle run will see the intake temps at 40c. at 17.6psi, they are approaching 60. Now even though i have a massive number of failsafes in place to prevent engine damage, i can't overlook the fact that the cooler is becoming the weakest link. Even though the wondrous charge cooling effects of E85 are plentiful in this setup, it became apparent that if i pushed the car like i once did, i would really be pushing **** a long way up hill. Plus, the car gets driven hard, and when i have enough time one day when im not building other peoples cars, or helping them achieve trophies and p.bs at the track, i will get around to using my car at the track, and i want a useable car, not a hand grenade.
 

 
But, everybody loves a dyno graph, so i thought id better leave one here. The darker red line is 180rwkw on 17.6psi of boost on BP 98 fuel. A long way from the old 224rwkw, but it is on 3.4psi less boost, and my 224kw used to be done when united sold 100 octane pump in victoria. The 2 blue lines at the 203kw mark are again on 17.6psi, but on E85. The car took a lot more timing, due to the octane and charge cooling difference that e85 provided. But again, due to the intake temps, i had diminishing gains.
 
Now before anyone suggests potential issues with the i/c system, yes i know the setup is not perfect. i could put baffles into the end tanks to ensure the core is used effectively, but the system is bled  correctly (have several bleed points), i have tested the setup with the flow in both directions through both heat exchangers, and with the data i have collected on all the testing i have done, the conclusion is that the intercooler is too small to be effective in my particular setup. But i'm sure i will cover that in 12 months time when i decided on what way i will tackle the problem, and when the poor piggy bank has recovered. (read: the annual sponsorship payment from the ATO is recieved.)
 
p.s. some of you with experience with E85 may ask why there is a lack of gain in the turbo response to full boost. It was probably put down to how i loaded the car up on the dyno, as i can report transient response is actually monumentally improved, rolling part throttle i can have 5psi more boost at 3500rpm. It has made the car a lot quicker than the graph would allow you to believe. It is still ultimately slower than when i had 224, but i can live with only 200 for now.

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
#86
robk
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Sunday, October 02, 2016 6:57 AM (permalink)
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You've been busy!

There is an extensive build thread for my car here: http://www.mr2australia.com/mr2play/tm.aspx?m=18316
#87
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Sunday, October 02, 2016 11:57 AM (permalink)
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Informative post for people Nath.
 
I still think there are improvements to be made with the core you have, but maybe it is time for a bigger core.
#88
MCT_MR2
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Sunday, October 02, 2016 2:31 PM (permalink)
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Cheers Trav, i try to impart a bit of knowledge here and there. Helps against misinformation, which is a major breeder of stupidity.

I know i haven't optimised the setup with the current core. Through playing around with mounting, adding diverters and probably the addition of a swirl pot header tank and booster pump (i have a header tank, just i need to fit a booster pump and move the main pump to do it) i could probably gain another 10-15% out of it, which is nothing to scoff at.

But like everything i bought in the early stages of this cars life, i don't think it quite suits my needs. Realistically when i sort out intercooling and tweak the exhaust a touch, i will be aiming for 20-25% more power than present, which will probably happen at around 23-24psi. At 20psi i was seeing intercooler inlet temps of around 145c. I have a few ideas in mind, but ill post them up when they are closer to a reality.

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
#89
stuka
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RE: MCT's AW11 ....... 100RWKW on run in tune! Monday, October 03, 2016 1:45 AM (permalink)
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Great info. You did well to catch that spun bearing before it got too bad, pays to listen to your engine.
#90
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