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Dry Sump?

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Tree
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/21 03:07:36 (permalink)
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Sorry but my car is worth more than 6k LOL 10k at least mang
I'm also adding an A/C I think my car will be 1230 kg by the end of this lol but whatever that's a small increase from 1174 and this is not a race car; even with the added weight driver skill should compensate ;)
I can get 3 deg neg camber at least and prob more with my crash bolts. Don't need front sway bar as it understeers with semis. Good point with the pressure gauge check or too much oil tho
#16
dasic1
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/21 09:40:31 (permalink)
+1 (1)
The oil level wont affect pressure, unless its got none. Most cars can hold more oil than what the dipstick says without any drama. When I rebuilt mine I cheeked it out and it was something like 10-15mm over the full line. In the HQ we run 1" over.
Oil catch can has nothing to do with it, its for catching blow by
#17
MCT_MR2
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/21 13:50:04 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I guess it really depends on what you class as acceptable oil pressure whilst on the track as to what you need for your car. Also when you are tracking your car your oil temps are a hell of a lot higher than normal, so not only does the oil move around in the pan a lot easier, but your engine is a lot slower to rebuild oil pressure. it is actually quite scary when you begin to log oil pressure at the track. Here is an example have handy:

This is an evo with stock baffling in the sump, hard compound semis with no aero, and this is a 1:36 lap around winton. It was .5l overfilled, which only ended up in the catch can. The blue line can show you where i'm referring to, and you can see by the map down the bottom right where he is at winton.
Now this engine has not been damaged from that one incident, but think how long the engine will last in the long run after a year of track days, if he gets more time in the car and gets quicker, softer tyres etc. That was logged from the main oil gallery where the factory sensor sits.

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
#18

Gatesys SW20
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/21 16:35:27 (permalink)
+1 (1)
In terms of insurance value
Your car wouldn't be much more then. 7.5k

Whether you can get 10k is a different story.

But
I would put money into oil cooling and a catch can.

Also in terms of a sway bar
One reason a car hndersteers is that your tyres are not on the ground properly so it under steers
And bigger away bar up front will help stick your tyres to the road harder rather then let them come unstuck in hard cornering
Many people have confirmed a lot better traction and less hndersteers with a larger front bar

White line do a good. 3 way adjustable one

Each to there own however :)
Good luck with the baffling be interesting to see how it goes.
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kameleon
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/21 22:00:48 (permalink)
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Just a FYI Tree, group N 3sge beams Celica's that raced in a one make series in Japan used stock sumps.
#20
Tree
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/22 14:22:41 (permalink)
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@MCT cool many thanks for the data log. Not sure if I'm reading it right but it looks like the oil pressure is dipping to 0 kpa (grey line) that can't be good
 
@ Gates: Pretty sure most of the understeer was due to stock suspension on semi's. And alignment needs to be more err...personalised. Changing driving style also makes quite a difference since I had a habit of late braking. With RE002 and same stock sussy I actually had a much more balanced setup since the tyres and sussy was "better" matched.
You are half right about the front sway bar. "By the book" front sway will increase understeer since it stiffens front thus increase rear grip. The ones who exp less understeer was cos they had too much body roll so the front sway helps that. But since the sway bars connect one axle to another it reduces wheel independence. The point of modern suspensions is to increase wheel patch as you say which is why they did away with live axle for MacPhers and double wish, no? So instead I will try to run higher spring rates which keeps 4 wheel independence but keeping the stock sways for now. If you remember Ken's car (FZero) he actually runs no sway bars lol
The good thing about the sway bar however is that it doesn't compromise ride comfort as much as spring rate.
 
Anyways before I delve into sways I should really try my rsr/koni combo first as I would have a better idea on where to go. Still waiting on the rsrs to arrive but thanks for the tip mate. I'll be curious to see what u run down the road and how it compares. I don't have the time and money to track the car soon but next trackway I'll definitely know if I need an oil cooler from the oil temp/press gauge :)
 
Thanks for the FYI Trav but don't race teams rebuild engines after each race hehe (i really have no idea)
 
Oh and since we are on topic about engine wear, in addition to pre-oilers, what about block heaters? Then switching to 0W-40 oil I think engine wear will be a distant memory LOL
#21

Knightrous
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/22 14:46:52 (permalink)
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TreeWith RE002 and same stock sussy I actually had a much more balanced setup since the tyres and sussy was "better" matched.


Probably a case of with the street tires your getting a small amount of oversteer (rear slip) that counters the understeer. When you go to the semi's you've now got more traction on the rear and your not able to counter that understeer by inducing some slip angle.
#22
Tree
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/22 17:17:41 (permalink)
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^Precisely, the semis were just too grippy for the stock suspension.
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kameleon
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/22 20:39:00 (permalink)
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Block heaters.......... not needed mate.
 
And no group N engines do not get rebuilt every race.
#24
WIDEMR
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/22 21:40:42 (permalink)
+2 (2)
Yeah i think your getting to ahead of yourself Tri, an engine pre warmer would not be required, altho I would be lying if I said I never wanted to have it on my car ha ha but not required for a stockish motor as 1. your engine was designed to start cold, i has done so very well every day for 20 years and 2. your not required to have your car turned off at the track, then start it up and be racing within a few seconds, you can idle for a few mins.
 
If your a F1 car, v8 supercar ect then thats different, as especially with F1 engines the tolerances are very tight, at room temp the motor might not turn over or cause alot of friction on parts and damage. A v8 supercar needs to sit there, then start the car and go do practice or qualifying runs ect.
 
I dont know about F1, but V8s and alot others use off car coolant heaters, 2 dry break fittings on the coolant system, connect up, recirculates coolant and heats it up, heating up the motor, oil ect as it goes.
 
Now if you had a dry sump........ you would be silly not to wrap a nos bottle heater blanket around the large oil tank in the boot, and have a power supply off the car to warm it up :)
#25
track_mr2
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/23 08:46:34 (permalink)
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I don't think you need to worry about doing anything to your motor interms of oil starvation. I use my MR2 only for track events with a stock sump and haven't had issues so far (hopefully stays that way).
I think a bigger question is, who's using there MR2 on the track frequently and out of them does anyone have a modified sump or modified oil system? I definately don't reckon anyone is running a dry sump on this forum?
#26
MRTurbo
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/23 12:37:02 (permalink)
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Re Upgraded sway bar
Tree - I run Pro Kits with Konis and also use 595 RS-Rs and a Whiteline H/D front sway bar.
Before fitting the sway bar, if I went too hot into a corner I would feel the back would want to "come out" and just a general scary feeling. After I fitted the bar, there was no noticeable increase in understeer but just a feeling of a more planted and stable car overall with much less roll - the front end felt much more "connected". Only if I really yank the steering wheel hard into a very tight turn will it understeer but so will most cars. I'll have to point out that it's only set on the 'soft' setting so I can't comment on what it's like on 'normal' or 'hard' which would probably induce more understeer.
Now I'm willing to upgrade the rear bar and see what that does.  

1990 SW20 GT 3S-GTE Targa
2001 Honda CBR600F4i

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EssDub
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/23 14:43:12 (permalink)
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Pre-whiteline, you would have been finding the car flexing laterally far enough to allow the weight at the back end to overpower the grip available from the front tyres, resulting in the oversteer.   By installing the harder front bar, even on the softest setting, you will have reduced that flex considerably, allowing the front wheels to remain in full contact with the road much better.  This does however increase the instance of understeer, since you are now able to load up the front wheels much more without fearing that the back will let go.  Since you are essentially running a (borderline) semi-slick tyre, you won't end up with the sledge understeer that you would get on lesser tyres.
 
By adding a stiffer rear bar, you will find that the car will corner much harder and flatter, but the transition to oversteer will be controlled more by driver input (throttle and steering) rather than good ol' inertia.  With both bars on the SOFT setting, you'll find a very neutral turn-in, with the tendancy to oversteer when lifting off the throttle.  Having the rear bar harder than the front will induce much more oversteer on turn-in, and with the front harder than rear, the front will tend to understeer or 'lean' into the corner.
 
Finding the balance is almost 100% driver preference IMO, it took me weeks to settle on the balance that I have in my car, but having them in the car is the single biggest improvement of any of the modifications I have done to it :D

Currently...
'03 Spyder 6MT - T28 inc...
------------------------------
Previously...
'00 FD3S
'94 SW20 Bathurst R
'88 AW11
'92 SW20 G-Limited
'90 SW20 G
'91 SW20 Mongrel
'94 G Limited T-Bar
'92 GT-S Turbo 
 
 
#28
MCT_MR2
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/23 15:24:18 (permalink)
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there is an accusump I just got in for a customers car, just for reference tree.
this one is a monster 3l model.

I find it odd that everyone is so quick to dismiss oil surge on a mid engined car. the most common mod you will find on a lotus elise/exige that gets tracked is an accusump.

oh and tree, your correct, the engine ran for 3 seconds with no oil pressure whatsoever on that one corner.

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
#29
Tree
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Re: Dry Sump? 2013/04/23 18:48:50 (permalink)
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@ Brendan/Trav yeh I was just being extra careful y'know by preventive maintenance rather than condition based as my last engine kicked the bucket too soon mainly due to my inexperience. redttarga claims to have saved his engine as well by installing the electric oil pump as there was metal on metal contact. Can't argue that all these mods contribute to engine longevity right? 10k would be a modest price for my beast ;)
And dw I'm not actually getting a block heater unless I have a proper garage and have nothing else to do lol
 
I don't know anyone with dry sump but Ken has a baffled sump
 
MRturbo yeh let us know how it goes with the rear sway bar. When i was researching between spring vs coils, the general idea I got was that all aftermarket SW20 springs are progressive and kinda soft for track so they needed sway bars to reduce roll; with the exception of RSR Race and H&R springs which have a more linear feel (but still prog) and average over 200 lbs (280-346 lb for rsr rears :). With coils tho can choose any rate so you could go really stiff with no sway bars. Another thing to note but every1 prob knows already is sway bars are not linear.
 
pics FTW! if I'm right that green thingy is the electric solenoid? Do you have thoughts or experience from customers about reliability of electric vs mechanical MCT?
#30
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