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Answeredrobk's MR2 Turbo

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robk
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/14 17:09:25 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I had a very busy and fun last 3 days! 
 
My car ran flawlessly at MTC (apart from really struggling with quick gear changes due to worn synchros from past track events), and I was one of the lucky people who didn't have any problems with the cooling system in the very high temperatures encountered during the whole event. The highest coolant temperature that I saw was only 88 degrees C which was great to see.
I was also very relieved to confirm that my improved intercooler piping and oil catch are working!
I need more practice at Wakefield Park, to bring my lap times back down near my best time of 1:11.3 from mid last year, and hopefully I'll manage to go below 1:10 soon. My driving is certainly the limiting factor at the moment, not the car or the Federal 595 RSR tyres. I could get better tyres and instantly improve my lap times, but I'm certain that the car has at least a 1:09 in it with the Federals, maybe even a 1:07-1:08 but that would be very difficult to manage.
 
After the MTC event, because I already had a day off on the Wednesday I drove straight to Eastern Creek for some drag racing! I only got to do 3 runs (and I missed a shift in the 2nd run due to the worn synchros), but I did manage to improve my 1/4 mile time to 11.6 seconds at 130mph with a 60 foot time of 2.0 seconds, on Federal 595 RSR tyres with no burnout. It seems that I'll need a 60 foot time of 1.6-1.8 seconds in order to achieve the high 10 second pass that I'm hoping for. It's quite easy to achieve a 60 foot time of ~1.8 seconds with a stock turbo MR2, but with my bigger turbo it's tricky to launch in the sweet spot between bogging down or lighting up the tyres excessively. At least I have an excuse to go back and try again. 
post edited by robk - 2016/11/26 18:48:15

There is an extensive build thread for my car here: http://www.mr2australia.com/mr2play/tm.aspx?m=18316
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/17 01:44:59 (permalink)
+1 (1)
11.6 seconds 1/4 time on an "off day" is outrageous, that's just on the heels of a 458 Italia. That's a bloody quick car you've got Rob haha

I'm hoping to make an 11 second MR2 one day - even high 11s is quick enough for me. I've got my "imaginary" perfect MR2 in my head - just need to find the funds + a car in the colour I want (already know I'll never find it!)
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/19 19:41:33 (permalink)
+1 (1)
^ interesting point, I extended this concept by figuring out where Rob sits in this list of supercar power to weight ratios (bhp/metric tonne). Rob, I based this on 1200kg but if you know the exact weight we can fine tune it some.

As you can see he's in some very rarefied company;

EDIT: Moved rob from 422 to 500 as the others in the list seem to have been calculated on crank horsepower not wheel horsepower


1120 -- Arial Atom 500
1000* - Caparo Freestream (*mfr. not in production yet)
956 --- SSC Ultimate Aero TT (2007, production underway)
909 --- Gumpert Apollo Sport (AutoBild sportscars 03/07)
903 --- TVR Cerbera Speed 12 (production plans cancelled)
854 --- SSC Ultimate Aero
795 --- Koenigsegg CCXR (Powercar 04/08)
770 --- 9ff GT9 (AutoBild sportscars 03/07)
753 --- Mission 400 Plus (AutoBild sportscars 03/07)
709 --- Dauer 962 Le Mans (mfr.)
700 --- Pagana Zonda R (mfr.)
692 --- Koenigsegg CCX (AutoBild sportscars 03/07)
688 --- edo competition Maserati MC12 XX (Autobild sportscars 03/07)
685 --- MTM Bimoto (AutoBild sportscars 03/07)
674 --- Ultima GTR
655 --- Koenigsegg CCR
643 --- Hennessey Viper Venom SRT-10 1000 Coupe
641 --- McLaren F1 LM
640 --- Radical SR3 Turbo
634 --- SSC Aero
612 --- Mercedes CLK GTR 1998
608 --- Maserati MC12 Corsa (sport auto 10/08)
596 --- Koenigsegg CCR
596 --- Sportec SPR 1 (AutoBild sportscars 03/07)
591 --- Gumpert Apollo
588 --- Sportec SPR1
561 --- Saleen S7 TT (750 bhp)
559 --- Caterham Superlight R500 Evolution
558 --- Radical SR8
550 --- McLaren F1 road car
550 --- Ferrari P4/5 by Pininfarina
549 --- Stealth B6
542 --- Gumpert Apollo Sport
541 --- Donkervoort D8 RS06
539 --- Pagani Zonda F Clubsport
538 –--- Bugatii 16/4 Veyron
532 --- Caterham R500 Evo
505 --- Bizzarrini P538 prototype
500 --- Rob's MR2 Turbo
491 --- Caterham CSR 260
490 --- Pagani Zonda F
484 --- Gemballa GTR 750 Evo
483 --- Ariel Atom 2006 1998cc
478 --- Ferrari Enzo
476 --- 9ff T-6 convertible
474 --- edo Porsche Carrear GT-R
467 --- Maserati MC12
454 --- Mosler MT900S Photon
448 --- Gemballa Mirage GT
439 --- Porsche Carrera GT
435 --- Mosler MT900 GTR
426 --- Corvette ZR1
420 --- BMW M1 Procar
417 --- Hohenester HS4-650R
415 --- Vector W8 TT
411 --- Campagna T-Rex
400 --- TVR Sagaris
398 --- Ferrari F40
395 --- Ferrari F430 Challenge
395 --- Jaguar XJ220
394 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT
392 --- 2008 Dodge Viper SRT10 coupe
389 --- Ferrari F50
373 --- Mercedes SL 65 AMG Black Series
349 --- Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 Roadster
377 --- RUF CTR2
367 --- Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano
364 --- Lamborghini Gallardo SE (520 bhp)
363 --- Sportec SP 600 convertible
363 --- Wiesmann GT MF5 coupe (Powercar 04/08)
359 --- TechArt 997 Turbo
357 --- Brabus Rocket
357 --- edo Gallardo Spyder
357 --- HGP Golf R32 Biturbo
356 --- Chevrolet C6 Corvette Z06
356 --- Porshe 997 GT2
355 --- Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 (dry, no fuel)
353 --- Lamborghini Murcielago
351 --- TVR Sagaris
350 --- Lamborghini Gallardo (dry, no fuel)
349 --- Lamborghini Murcielago Roadster (dry, no fuel)
346 --- Ford GT
345 --- edo F430 Spider
345 --- Novidem Nissan GT500 (tuned 350Z)
345 --- Wendland 997 Turbo
339 --- Gemballa GT550
338 --- 9ff Porsche 996 T-2
333 --- Ferrari F430
333 --- Hartge H50 V10
332 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale
330 –--- SpeedArt TTR 530
326 --- Reiter Engineering Lamborghini Gallardo GT3 Strada
323 --- Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder (520 bhp,dry, no fuel)
323 --- Schürg Opel Speedster Turbo
322 --- Ferrari F430 Spider (Powrrcar 04/08)
312 --- Porsche 996 GT2
319 --- Dodge Viper SRT-10 Coupe
318 --- Ferrari F430 Spyder
313 --- AC Schnitzer Tension
312 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello
304 --- Aston Martin V8 Vantage LeMans V600 (2000)
304 --- Ford Shelby GT050 KR
304 --- KTM X-Bow (Powercar 04/08)
303 --- Mitsubishi Lancer EVO VI TME
303 --- Porsche 997 Turbo
300 --- Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione
295 --- TVR T350
294 --- Ferrari 612 Scaglietti
291 --- Porsche 997 GT3 RS
290 --- Aston Martin V12 Vanquish
288 --- Ferrari 360 Modena
288 --- VW Scirocco GT 24 (Powercar 04/08)
287 --- Mercedes-Benz CL65 AMG
286 --- Brabus S600 T13
285 --- BMW E63 M6 Coupe
285 --- Mercedes-Benz SL65 AMG
285 --- TechArt GT Sport
282 --- Ford Shelby GT500
281 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Carrera RS
280 --- Alpina B6
271 --- 2009 Ferrari California (Powercar 04/08)
279 --- BMW E60 M5 sedan
279 --- AC Schnitzer Mini Cooper S
274 --- Ariel Atom
270 --- Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG
269 --- Audi R8
269 --- Artega GT
267 --- Cadillac XLR-V
266 --- 2009 Porsche Carrera S
265 --- Ferrari California GT
264 --- Aston Martin DB9
263 --- Enco Cayenne Turbo
263 --- Porsche 996 Turbo
263 --- Maybach Exelero
260 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (2003)
258 --- Audi RS6 Plus (2004)
256 --- Lorinser CL600
255 --- BMW M6 convertible
255 --- Audi RS4 Quattro (2005)
254 --- Bentley Continental Flying Spur Speed (Powercar 04/08)
253 --- Mercedes CL 63 AMG
250 --- eds Vectra OPC
249 --- Porsche 997 Carrera S Cabrio (Pwercar 04/08)
248 --- Aston Martin V12 Vanguish (2001)
247 --- Lotus Elise SC
245 --- Lexus IS-F
243 --- edo Cayenne Turbo R
242 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT
241 --- Chevrolet Camaro SS V8
238 --- MTM Audi TT 2.0 TFSI
237 --- Audi RS4 Avant
237 --- Cadillac STS-V (2006)
236 --- Aston Martin DB7 Vantage (1999-2003)
235 --- Ford Mustang SVT Cobra (2003)
235 --- Porsche 997 Carrera 4 (Powercar 04/08)
234 --- Jaguar XKR (sport auto 12/06)
234 --- Lorinser Mercedes E 500 (Powercar 04/08)
233 --- Jaguar XK/R-S (Powercar 04/08)
233 --- BMW E39 M5 (1998-2003)
232 --- Audi S8 (2005)
232 --- Chrysler 300C SRT-8 (2006)
230 --- Cadillac CTS-V (2004)
229 --- Maserati 3200GT, 370 PS/1614 kg
226 --- Dodge Charger SRT-8 (2006)
226 --- Dodge Challenger SRT-8 (2008)
225 --- Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6 coupe (2005)
223 --- BMW E46 M3 Coupe (2000)
222 --- AC Schnitzer ACS3 Sport Cabrio DKG (Powercar 04/08)
220 --- Audi S6 (2006)
219 --- Audi RS4 convertible
219 --- Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6 roadster (2005)
217 --- BMW E46 M3 SMG
215 --- Chrysler 300C SRT8
213 --- BMW 650i
209 --- 2009 BMW 750i
209 --- Porsche Cayman S
206 --- Pontiac Firebird Trans Am WS6 (1998-2002) “conservative”
202 --- Porsche Boster
201 --- Lotus Europa S
202 --- Bentely Arnage Final Series
200 --- Steinmetz Opel Astra OPC
post edited by Jaemus - 2016/01/20 09:43:07

Builder / Former owner of: Australia's first V6 converted SW20
Current ride: '92 JDM GT turbo hardtop

Jaemus
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/19 19:46:51 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Heh, my 2015 Triumph Street Triple 675 ABS with me on it at my current weight only manages 386 bhp/ton :)
 

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MCT_MR2
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/19 20:25:29 (permalink)
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I calculate you figure a little different as well rob.
So 378kw to hp is × 1.34 giving 506hp

If you were on a hub dyno, drivetrain loss is around 15-17% giving 592 hp, if done on a chassis dyno, tyres need to come into it, with a further 10-12% loss (particularily at your end of the power level scheme), which would be more in the league of 663hp

That puts you at 455hp for a hub dyno, or
Around 510hp per tonne if done at wheels

Pretty serious numbers, my adub clocks in at around 357hp per tonne.

On another side note, the arial atom would drop massively in hp per tonne based on fuel load and driver weight. Add an 80kg driver, and it drops 200hp per tonne
post edited by MCT_MR2 - 2016/01/19 20:45:00

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
robk
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/19 20:39:28 (permalink)
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I removed my initial post, but you covered most of what I said anyway thanks MCT_MR2 :-)

EDIT: I think ~620hp is a better estimate of the flywheel horsepower of my car (keeping in mind that it made 378rwkw on 68% ethanol so it would be slightly higher on 85% ethanol).
The weight would be closer to ~1250kg with minimal fuel.
That gives a hp/tonne value of ~500.

Maybe Jaemus can update the list accordingly, using the more comparable value of 500.
post edited by robk - 2016/01/19 23:06:04

There is an extensive build thread for my car here: http://www.mr2australia.com/mr2play/tm.aspx?m=18316

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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/19 20:43:49 (permalink)
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Cheers rob, i saw your post come up when mine wouldnt post what i wrote.

Yeah, ill fix up the typo too while im at it. Its pretty amazing how much weight ends up getting added with wta intercoolers, bigger turbos and manifolds, it adds up quite quickly.

'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

224.6KW @ 20PSI

more to come......
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/19 22:05:08 (permalink)
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This is the conversion tool that you need - http://www.promotec.co.za/power-calculator.html
Choose front wheel drive and turbo for your car Rob

Mr Glengineering.
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/20 09:52:50 (permalink)
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Moved in accordance with Rob's suggestion :)


Though I find it hard to believe you can lose so much power through your gearbox and tyres. If we go on the suggested crank figure of 620hp, and rob's 378kw dyno measured at the wheels is 509hp, that means you're losing 111 hp. That's a whole 3S-FE's power output - why does the loss scale like this? Surely it takes a finite amount of power to spin the same gearbox and turn the same tyres against friction etc (admittedly larger tyres than stock).

My previous 3VZ-FE powered MR2 dyno'd 117rwkw and the manufacturer's figure is 140kw, which is a relative loss of 16.4% and closer to the kind of numbers suggested, but it's an absolute loss of only 23kw. Where does Rob's extra 57kw go? Is it dissipated as heat? 
 
Maybe I'm missing something here...

Builder / Former owner of: Australia's first V6 converted SW20
Current ride: '92 JDM GT turbo hardtop
robk
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/20 10:53:24 (permalink)
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Jaemus:
 
The normally accepted rule-of-thumb is to add 15-25% to the power at the wheels and you'll get an approximate value for the power at the flywheel. The 20-25% end of the range would probably apply more so to AWD cars. The 15-20% end of the range would be more likely for MR2s due to their transmission layout being more like that in a FWD car. 
 
Power is lost through the transmission in the following ways (at least):
- Heat due to friction and gear oil viscosity in all of the transmission components, including the transmission oil pump and the differential
- Heat due to friction where the tyres meet the road or dyno rollers
- Slip of the tyres against the road or dyno rollers
- Rotational inertia of all the rotating parts in the transmission including the wheels and tyres
 
For the friction/heat losses, these would increase as the overall engine power increases, because the tyres would be pushing harder against the road or dyno rollers, and the transmission gears would be pushing harder against each other. 
 
Rotational inertia is the resistance to rotational acceleration or deceleration of an object. When a vehicle's drive train is accelerating (eg. a drag race or a dyno pull), all of the rotating components have rotational inertia which tries to prevent those components from being accelerated to a higher rotational speed. The more power a car has, the more it wants to accelerate, therefore the rotational inertia of the transmission components is a major factor. 
post edited by robk - 2016/01/20 11:53:24

There is an extensive build thread for my car here: http://www.mr2australia.com/mr2play/tm.aspx?m=18316
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/20 14:32:25 (permalink)
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I see what you're saying, but it still seems a bit extreme to me.
 
Worth noting is that on the calculator Glenn provided, you get 577 crank horsepower.


In any case, my suggestion is you tune it again on 85% ethanol and/or increase the boost some more until you eclipse the Veyron just above you in the list there :)

Builder / Former owner of: Australia's first V6 converted SW20
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robk
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/20 16:51:00 (permalink)
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Remember that the 620 crank hp that I mentioned was assuming a little bit more than 378rwkw if there was 85% ethanol in the tank instead of 68% ethanol. The car was tuned on 85% ethanol, but that was before MRC replaced their dyno rollers to help eliminate wheel spin. With the new dyno rollers I've only had the car on their dyno with 68% ethanol at a dyno day and that's when it made 378rwkw. I'm sure that it will make about 385-400rwkw if I put it back on the dyno again with 85% ethanol and no extra tuning. The flex-fuel tune is already set up to automatically (and safely) increase the boost and ignition advance with any increase in ethanol content. 
 
I should be able to get over 400rwkw on E85 with a few more psi of boost and/or more ignition advance, which would be awesome, but I have to decide whether I want to put that extra stress on the engine and transmission. I've heard of E153 transmission gear teeth shearing off with about 450+rwkw, so I want to stay well away from that sort of craziness. If I had just a little bit more power then that would help me to get a 10 second pass at the drags, which is why the idea crossed my mind in the first place, but I should be able to do it without the extra power. I was toying with the idea of using my launch control button to also allow some more power to be applied only while the button is pressed. 

There is an extensive build thread for my car here: http://www.mr2australia.com/mr2play/tm.aspx?m=18316
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/20 17:24:53 (permalink)
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robk
Remember that the 620 crank hp that I mentioned was assuming a little bit more than 378rwkw if there was 85% ethanol in the tank instead of 68% ethanol. The car was tuned on 85% ethanol, but that was before MRC replaced their dyno rollers to help eliminate wheel spin. With the new dyno rollers I've only had the car on their dyno with 68% ethanol at a dyno day and that's when it made 378rwkw. I'm sure that it will make about 385-400rwkw if I put it back on the dyno again with 85% ethanol and no extra tuning. The flex-fuel tune is already set up to automatically (and safely) increase the boost and ignition advance with any increase in ethanol content. 
 
I should be able to get over 400rwkw on E85 with a few more psi of boost and/or more ignition advance, which would be awesome, but I have to decide whether I want to put that extra stress on the engine and transmission. I've heard of E153 transmission gear teeth shearing off with about 450+rwkw, so I want to stay well away from that sort of craziness. If I had just a little bit more power then that would help me to get a 10 second pass at the drags, which is why the idea crossed my mind in the first place, but I should be able to do it without the extra power. I was toying with the idea of using my launch control button to also allow some more power to be applied only while the button is pressed. 


What about putting sensors on your 4 wheel to control your launch.
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/20 17:32:05 (permalink)
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I make one comment and you guys get all technical with it. Not all of us are good with stats and figures dammit haha
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RE: robk's MR2 Turbo 2016/01/20 18:45:25 (permalink)
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Pumping up your rear tyres to 50psi will give you more power on the dyno :-)

Mr Glengineering.
Please visit my other forums - 
www.celica.org.au
www.classic-ford.org
 
 
My build thread - https://www.mr2australia..m/mr2play/FindPost/47893
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