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jc MR2 gts
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2012/06/27 11:23:58 (permalink)
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Front Air Diffusers - do they work?

I was reading an article recently about the increase / decrease in car performance by adding a rear wing and it stated that many of them do not create sufficient down force because they are not rigid enough or they act as an air brake because the angle of deflection is to great?
 
So the question is do small front Air Diffusers like the one below work and if so where can I buy them?
 

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    Senol
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/27 11:25:56 (permalink)
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    aero is difficult to get right/be effective. Most of the time it is done for looks only. 
     
     
    #2
    MRTurbo
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/27 14:42:43 (permalink)
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    depends how fast you're going...
    things on a street car are mostly always for looks/rice unless you've got a Veyron or something.

    1990 SW20 GT 3S-GTE Targa
    2001 Honda CBR600F4i

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    Tree
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/27 18:16:34 (permalink)
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    I did a bit of reading a while back too. Basically to have an effective rear wing it needs to be higher than the whole car. Obviously that won't be street-able lol. That small aero piece you circled is called a "canard" I think and if you search on eBay you can find them cheap. There's a more effective front wing from madpsi
    http://www.madpsi.net/MR2CarbonFiberFrontLip.htm
    I like this one cos it fits to the OEM bumper.
    But yeh if you're a really good driver and race at 150km/h+ then maybe it could provide more grip.
    #4
    kameleon
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/27 22:06:19 (permalink)
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    Your car is a street car no? you would not need anymore downforce than the front bumper you have no matter how fast your car goes on a track. less is more in this case.
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    blacky83
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/27 23:58:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
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    I disagree somewhat. The front end aero of the early models is meant to be fairly poor, creating lift and giving a wandering feel at highway speeds. This is why they added the 'speed flaps' to the front wheel arches, which from most accounts make a noticeable difference even at legal speeds.
    A properly made front splitter will give you a little bit more downforce (or at least eliminate lift) whilst cleaning up the front end airflow to potentially reduce drag. Combining this with a flat underbody and potentially a diffuser can also work in your favour with almost no drawbacks. Its fairly simple theory, so you don't need to be doing CFD to get something that works, and if it makes your car look pretty bitchin' then win/win :D
     
    As for being strongly secured, that is something most people do overlook. Downforce only occurs if its transferred to the car. For inspiration:

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    kameleon
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/28 19:37:31 (permalink)
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    you have not seen this guys car have you? he doesn't need more than what he has on his car already.
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    esskay
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/28 22:13:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
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    According to "Competition Car Aerodynamics" - A Practical Handbook, 2nd Ed. By Simon McBeath pg 190 (referred to here as "Dive Planes" but given many different names):
     
    What general conclusions can we draw about dive planes, then? We can perhaps say that by adding dive planes like those featured here:
     
    -Drag increases
    -Front downforce increases
    -rear downforce might decrease
    -the aerodynamic balance shifts to the front
    -Efficiency (-L/D) might decrease if rear downforce reduces but might increase if not
    -The effects will depend on the dive plane size and it's steepness
    In short, dive planes can be very useful but need to be deployed with care

     
    The examples "featured" in the book ranged from the Britcar Noble M400, the Eco Racing Radical SR10 LMP1, a 1991 IMSA Jaguar XJR-16, and an ALMS GT2 Porsche with modified (extended) dive planes. Full scale wind tunnels were used, and the results seemed to be inconsistent with ricer logic - the Jag (which had arguably the most "extreme" looking aero) had large dive planes that created lift at the rear, reducing overall downforce. The Noble had some of the most subdued aero of all the cars tested, but the result was the same, despite differences in Dive Plane angle and size. 
     
    *HOWEVER On both cars the front gained slight downforce, shifting balance marginally towards the front - but front downforce change was in the order of a couple of percent (Noble was higher, due to lower initial downforce). Having said that, a road car may see a larger percentage increase due to the lower initial downforce of the car when stock, but at the speeds required to feel that difference you probably won't be in possession of your car for very long anyway - and whilst it's a large percentage change (I'm talking 5-6% for the Noble), it's a large percentage of a very small number :)*
     
    The Radical saw an increase in downforce at the front, and no loss at the rear, seeing a shift in balance towards the front of 2%, and the Porsche, whilst having much smaller dive planes than any of the other cars, saw an increase in front and reduction in rear downforce resulting in a shift in balance by 5% to the front. 
     
     
    Overall, dive planes are fickle and need to be used *very* carefully IF they are to have an effect - and the effect they have varies from car to car, and require extensive testing to actually improve handling. Their wake can interfere with the front wing, and it can interfere with the rear wing, but in all honesty,  a reduction in rear downforce isn't what you want at high speed on public roads anyway. Even on race cars we're seeing a change in downforce balance in the order of a few percentage points - something very few drivers will notice on the road (and shouldn't notice in an MR2 anywhere other than the track), particularly when airflow is so disorganised on a road car in the first place (placement of the dive planes in a turbulent low pressure zone might not do a thing to balance, nor downforce).
     
    Results are entirely dependent on interactions with the rest of the aero package, and it's not as simple as "angled down = downforce", or "bigger is better". Their purpose on race cars is more about shifting downforce balance forwards, rather than simply creating more downforce - on a street car that shift in balance, if it can be achieved, won't necessarily help handling on a car prone to oversteer. To get any rear downforce in an MR2 obviously the rear wing needs to be out of the low pressure area behind the cabin, either up high or off to the sides - and the wider the wing, the greater effect dive planes will have on it. Even the dude in the Scion in the photo above^^ will probably find that his massive front wing has completely ****ed the airflow over the rear - a bit like an F1 car following closely the one in front.
     
    The one thing they're guaranteed to do is marginally increase fuel consumption, due to increased drag in all instances, and probably get asked by police to remove at best, due to protruding bodywork, and get defected at worst, I would imagine. 
     
    By all means give it a go - but for them to be truly effective, it's not as simple as buying something off ebay and sticking them on - even on fully fledged race cars in most cases the difference in balance appears to be marginal. If I was going to try it, Id go to a track day armed with a bunch of different designs, along with a front bumper from the wreckers so I could drill a bunch of holes in it and mount different ones in different positions, and see if I could feel the difference. It's the only way to really know their effectiveness on the MR2.
     
    [edit]: Ok that turned out a bit longer than I expected - 
    tl;dr version: They make a difference, but it's marginal, extremely variable, has unintended side-effects on downforce, only matters at (very) high speed, and needs fine tuning and experience to get it right - not as simple as buying off ebay.
    #8
    MCT_MR2
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/28 22:56:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
    +1 (1)
    Simon Mc Beath is quite knowledgeable. Apart from being a freelance designer and a contributor to racecar engineering, he is quite well known, and has many bit's of his research published. I actually have one of his custom designed wings sitting at the workshop, which if anything, unfortunantley makes too much downforce. Actually, speaking of canards and Simon McBeath, he has done some design work for a few composites companies in the UK where he is based, on is Reverie. If you have a thing for carbon, check out this link: http://www.reverie.ltd.uk/automotive_home.php
     
    As for canards, if they aren't designed correctly, they cause more drag than anything else. Supporting them for intended downforce on most cars is a prick, and if you get pulled over by the wrong cop, they will shaft you for it, as they are a hazard to pedestrians, and as such are not compliant with ADR's.
     
    One thing i got explained to me by both Simon, and another ex F1 aero engineer is that, to truely make the most out of any kind of serious downforce, you first need to have the power to overcome the drag. A well designed piece of aero will have a 4:1 downforce to drag ratio, and you will only really ever see that ratio from a rear wing.
     
    A front splitter will be more effective, as will getting airflow out of the wheel arches, as  your wheels are basically giant fans, a flat floor is also more effective, a truely flat floor on a car with a 1 degree or so rake (front lower than rear) will actually create downforce on it's own, provided not too much air can enter from the sides of the vehicle.

    '88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258

    224.6KW @ 20PSI

    more to come......
    #9
    esskay
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/29 00:11:09 (permalink)
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    MCT_MR2 flat floor is also more effective, a truely flat floor on a car with a 1 degree or so rake (front lower than rear) will actually create downforce on it's own, provided not too much air can enter from the sides of the vehicle.
    Yeah I was just reading about that, pretty sure its the next or previous section in the book. Very interesting stuff, I cant say I know a lot about aero, but the book explains it all well with plenty of examples and explanations.
    #10
    blacky83
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/29 00:43:28 (permalink)
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    Thats some good info. Must say I should have read the first post better, thought the canards were brake ducts and it was just about the front lip design.
    After realising that, I wouldn't recommend canards themselves, for questionable legality and their complex interaction with your current aero. But I still maintain that you can definitely improve things.
    Having a rake on the floor is the same principle as a diffuser. A constant amount of air is flowing under the car, but the space it fills gets bigger towards the back, so pressure drops and the car gets sucked onto the road. Using proper diffuser channels allows you to adjust the Centre of Pressure, so you can balance the downforce. Hell, you could probably design one of these using empirical data, they are quite simple. I think I may still have the data from some wind tunnel testing I did at uni.
     
    Another project I have in mind is an Exige style engine cover. From what I've read the notchback style is really terrible for drag.
    #11
    Tree
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/29 01:18:28 (permalink)
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    Sounds like you lot all have a degree in aero lol
    Bossman Admin has 2 canards on the front of each side of his beast. 
    Madpsi also stocks a rear diffuser for the SW20. Anyone know where we can get flat underbody panels? Or is that something people usually just make themselves?
    #12
    jc MR2 gts
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/29 10:13:11 (permalink)
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    WOW!!!!

    This great info. The articles I have read lately have been talking about balancing aero front and rear but how do you do this with out CFD Modeling, a wind tunnel and degree? Test and measure on the track I guess?

    Car is for sale for 2 more weeks. If no one buys it I am throwing more time $ money at it.

    The car has a large front splitter that was fitted with a couple of bolts to the front bar by the previous owner.
    I braced the splitter directly to charis I noticed a big improvement, but I would like to make a smaller splitter for it. Are there any designs that seem to work better? Or anything I should consider in the new design?

    It did have an aluminum double bladed wing that is semi adjustable so I might put it back on the car and have a play

    Would you recommend buying some speed flaps?

    I would like to design and build a rear defused similar to the Ferrari 599xx. Is there anything I should consider?

    I will also be designing and building a rear engine cover similar to exige or Ferrari F40 I have a couple of concepts in mind.

    I might look at the prospect of an under body tray at the same time.

    If I did design and build this stuff would it be worth moulding them? would anyone be interested in buying this kind of stuff?

    Looks like I am going to be busy for a while???
    #13
    dasic1
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/29 12:13:46 (permalink)
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    Depends on how it turns out if people will be interested. Ive considered on doing similar stuff/ would buy if the quality is right.
     
    #14
    MANDALAY
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    Re:Front Air Diffusers - do they work? 2012/06/29 13:04:50 (permalink)
    +1 (1)
    Ild rather just see the results than to read on the subject.
     
    And see them i have with my engine builders track car.
     
    It has literally 1000's of hrs of testing even with his home made/dyno wind tunnel.
    Hard to believe but the results are better than any Ferrari
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