5SGTE
MR2 Deity
- Total Posts : 1909
- Scores: 163
- Reward points: 4724
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: qld Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/20 20:10:32
(permalink)
Lol, I meant chuck some on and see if they fix the vibration.
|
Reddtarga
MR2 Deity
- Total Posts : 2175
- Scores: 249
- Reward points: 5547
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Vic Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/21 13:57:53
(permalink)
TwoDogs ..so I got Koni inserts, which I like, with Eibachs, which have so far been too firm, but now I realise the bangs are probably not due to spring rate alone.
Which Eibach springs? Eibach Pro kits + Koni adjustables normally shouldn't ride hard according to most people's opinions. How much front bump travel do you actually have, and have you measured it. The early model bumpstops are thicker than the later model ones, so if you still have them, travel will be limited and the 'bangs' you mention could be the top of the shock crashing into the bumptops.
|
TwoDogs
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 312
- Scores: 15
- Reward points: 3457
- Joined: 2013/09/20 10:48:25
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/21 20:46:25
(permalink)
@Redtarga - Eibach Pro + Koni adjustables is what I have and after thinking more about bump steer, I believe what you say about them not being too hard. Why I say that is because if 1 wheel hits a bump, I get a big yank of the steering wheel but the car goes over the bump just fine. It is when both wheels hit that the suspension travel is restricted by the hubs which are unable to rotate around the steering axis in their bump steering fashion. I had a look at bump stops, thinking they were just a metal protection, but it seems they are 'clever' in max travel cornering situations. The situation I'm describing is going straight ahead.
|
B24
Supporter
- Total Posts : 2405
- Scores: 278
- Reward points: 5936
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Sydney NSW Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/24 20:20:28
(permalink)
From what I read, there is no point chasing bump steer or anything else until you have a solid base to start from. I wuld suggest doing the following. - replaced all the bushes
- balljoints
- tie rods
- inner rod link on steering rack
- bushes for steering rack
- rear toe link rose joints
- checked the mounting points for cracks, broken welds
- checked the sway bar links as these bend and can 'lock' in certain circumstances
Once this is sorted, then you can start working on bump steer and general fine tuning of the car. Are you aware of how to test the bump steer? If not it is easy enough but does require a bit of work to set it all up. Also setting the caster right on the rear and front will settle the car. Then the camber Then the alignment Then check and do it three times to get it dead right.
|
TwoDogs
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 312
- Scores: 15
- Reward points: 3457
- Joined: 2013/09/20 10:48:25
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/25 10:37:18
(permalink)
Thanks B24, I got an inspection done yesterday and the report came back that I need: Left Front Wheel Bearing Both rear control arm bushes 1 rear castor bush. I had expected more especially in the steering rods, but I have already (<2000kms ago) replaced the left front outer tierod. I just posted on the Ordering Parts thread to see if a group buy for all the bushes was still happening. I will also be buying some bump steer correction bits to compensate for the 1" drop.
|
Reddtarga
MR2 Deity
- Total Posts : 2175
- Scores: 249
- Reward points: 5547
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Vic Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/25 11:12:23
(permalink)
TwoDogs I will also be buying some bump steer correction bits to compensate for the 1" drop.
Eibach Prokits run at about the same ride height as 92+ cars. At one stage I had those springs with Koni inserts on my '90 model. With them I had zero bump steer, but of course I had stock wheels and alignment.
|
TwoDogs
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 312
- Scores: 15
- Reward points: 3457
- Joined: 2013/09/20 10:48:25
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/25 11:33:15
(permalink)
Hi RT, well I don't understand. If there is no bump steer with a 1" drop, then wouldn't there be some with the stock ride height. Unless the pivot points were aligned, which I don't think they are. Anyway I will fix up the bushes and wheel bearing first and then check the behaviour before proceeding with the adjusters/spacers. I'm not sure the wheels being out 10mm over stock (35mm offset) contributes to the bump steer but it certainly accounts for the wheel bearing. Will be sorting better wheels also. Will check your suggestion - Nissan 40mm offsets.
|
5SGTE
MR2 Deity
- Total Posts : 1909
- Scores: 163
- Reward points: 4724
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: qld Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/25 14:15:28
(permalink)
B24, I'd be interested in your experiences testing and measuring bumpsteer on an sdub.
|
TwoDogs
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 312
- Scores: 15
- Reward points: 3457
- Joined: 2013/09/20 10:48:25
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/29 13:42:49
(permalink)
@5sgte - here are links to some significant analysis of SW20 suspension geometry, front and back. http://wilhelmraceworks.com/suspension-analysis-links A lot I understand and a lot I don't. Mainly modelling software results with some real world confirmation. My 1990 has been lowered 1" (Alex models 3 ride heights - stock, 1" & 1.5" down). I need to go over it again but it seems from 1st read, I may just need the front end rca bits. The rear end bump steer (+/- variation in toe) is minimal between stock and 1".
post edited by TwoDogs - 2017/05/29 14:17:12
|
B24
Supporter
- Total Posts : 2405
- Scores: 278
- Reward points: 5936
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Sydney NSW Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/29 16:42:00
(permalink)
I used a front tie rod end RCA mod based on a theory (which is a similar length to the US one) that turned out to be two long for two reasons. This is the first photo.First, there is so much leverage it ended up snapping through the sweeper at Winton which ejected my car into the sandtrap, through the air, across the track then into another sandtrap. I has anther set made which were 10mm shorter but after using the bump steer tool it became apparent the toe links were way to long. The second pic is after I set the front end correctly using the bump steer tool. As you can see it does not have to change much from the standard point but you then manage zero bump through the whole range. The a link is a little exercise I was playing with a while back. So you need to still dial in the kit with the right tooling before driving it. Would also recommend the camber/caster plate sold by the US supplier as its a great mod.
|
B24
Supporter
- Total Posts : 2405
- Scores: 278
- Reward points: 5936
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Sydney NSW Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/29 16:43:34
(permalink)
5SGTE B24, I'd be interested in your experiences testing and measuring bumpsteer on an sdub.
I had these on file but it could be a task to find! One thing for sure , is its was a lot more settled to drive after setting up the bump steer.
|
kameleon
Supporter
- Total Posts : 2733
- Scores: 106
- Reward points: 6018
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: melbourne vic Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/29 21:03:17
(permalink)
I see bump steer talked about here but only B24 understands what it actually is! Get your wear issues sorted out then a good alignment. Which is basically all you need. B24 at what point did you have toe out and in when doing your plots? Although zero is the sort after figure i have had great results on other cars by dialling some bump rather than removing. This could reduce that huge height stack you had to do to get zero bump on the SW20 chassis and make the chassis more stable at speed.
|
B24
Supporter
- Total Posts : 2405
- Scores: 278
- Reward points: 5936
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Sydney NSW Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/29 22:38:57
(permalink)
kameleon I see bump steer talked about here but only B24 understands what it actually is! Get your wear issues sorted out then a good alignment. Which is basically all you need. B24 at what point did you have toe out and in when doing your plots? Although zero is the sort after figure i have had great results on other cars by dialling some bump rather than removing. This could reduce that huge height stack you had to do to get zero bump on the SW20 chassis and make the chassis more stable at speed.
Thanks mate. When I checked the bump steer it was set at the toe alignment that I planned on using. The next time I fine tune it, I would check the bump steer in numerous toe settings just to narrow down the optimum set up. Adjusting the rear caster through a number of settings also shifted the bump steer plot so in the case of the rear of the car being less flexable for bump steer adjustment, you can set the caster to have the bump steer being closer to neutral in a set range. I managed to set it up in this way so the bump was neutral until the last 30mm of travel where it would then toe in. The rear bump on the race car does not toe out an any stage of travel. It was -4mm overall (if I recall) then finished at -6mm on full compression on the bump stop. That is total -mm from the front of the rear rims The orginal front toe link stack was never calculated. I simply had a guess then had it made then tested it. IT was way too big, effected the steering input, was a bit vague then broke. Once I returned to the set up in the second photo which was used at MTC /Wakefield 300km, it was a sound set up in comparison. This is the same link used by EVO65 used in the WTAC SW20.
|
TwoDogs
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 312
- Scores: 15
- Reward points: 3457
- Joined: 2013/09/20 10:48:25
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/29 23:47:00
(permalink)
@b24 - how much lower than stock is the car ?
|
B24
Supporter
- Total Posts : 2405
- Scores: 278
- Reward points: 5936
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Sydney NSW Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Bump Steer - what I never fully appreciated.
2017/05/30 09:00:39
(permalink)
TwoDogs @b24 - how much lower than stock is the car ?
I really don't know as I have never measured the stock ride heights. It is pretty low. Photo added to give you an idea
|