sir_smeghed
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 71
- Scores: 6
- Reward points: 919
- Joined: 2017/04/10 22:53:24
- Location: Alexandra Hills, Queensland
- Status: offline
Diff Ratios
Hey all, I'm pretty new to the MR2 scene, I have just bought a 1990 SW20 with the standard MT box (S54?). The car has had an engine transplant from a honda S2000, it's a very tidy job but the diff ratio is all wrong. Currently the car doesn't hit redline in first gear until approximately 90 km/h and in second gear the Vtec doesn't kick in until around 80 km/h. As the intake and exhaust is specifically setup for optimum output with the Vtec engaged, the car is extremely gutless until it kicks in. I'm sure I can improve things a little by manipulating the point at which the Vtec kicks in but doubt I would gain more than 1500 - 2000 rpm as a best case scenario. The diff ratio most certainly needs to be changed, I want the Vtec well and truly doing it's job at 60 km/h in 2nd. Please somebody/anybody! What are my options, and are there any affordable LSD options that I may consider? Thanks
post edited by sir_smeghed - 2017/05/18 14:32:00
|
Falcon
Supporter
- Total Posts : 623
- Scores: 167
- Reward points: 5033
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Brisbane Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/21 06:08:59
(permalink)
If it is an E153 as used in the MR2 Turbo it's final drive ratio will be 4.285. That is the lowest ratio available that I'm aware of. Honda transmission ??
|
Eric
QLD Moderator
- Total Posts : 1117
- Scores: 280
- Reward points: 4319
- Joined: 2012/04/06 21:41:57
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/21 08:42:43
(permalink)
If this is the one from Queensland, I am fairly certain this has an S54 transmission (The N/A MT)
1990 SW20 Hardtop - Supercharged 2GR-FZE
|
Falcon
Supporter
- Total Posts : 623
- Scores: 167
- Reward points: 5033
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Brisbane Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/21 08:53:57
(permalink)
OK. In that case it's final drive is most likely 3.944 to 1. Where are you located? Which transmission do you actually have? E153 or S54 ?
|
Eric
QLD Moderator
- Total Posts : 1117
- Scores: 280
- Reward points: 4319
- Joined: 2012/04/06 21:41:57
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/21 12:17:38
(permalink)
If you are unsure on which gearbox you have, the easiest way to check is to look under the gearbox on the front side (cabin side) and look for a pipe that is in a "U" Shape.
If it has this pipe, it is an E153.
1990 SW20 Hardtop - Supercharged 2GR-FZE
|
Knightrous
MR2 Deity
- Total Posts : 2045
- Scores: 272
- Reward points: 5721
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: .
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/21 13:45:32
(permalink)
|
sir_smeghed
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 71
- Scores: 6
- Reward points: 919
- Joined: 2017/04/10 22:53:24
- Location: Alexandra Hills, Queensland
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/21 22:11:44
(permalink)
Thanks guys. Yes, this is Thomas Crans' old car so looks like I'm running an S54. Is the E153 a direct bolt up alternative for the S54? 4.285 is heading in the right direction but I may have to look at going custom, I worked out 5.8:1 is what I need... If it's even possible! (or I could run 13 inch wheels.... Or not!). I was really hoping someone knew of a low range application that was compatible. :( I may have to get REALLY creative. If I simulate 0.7 psi intake vacuum pressure from 3000 rpm onward and tune the Vtec to that range then the 4.285 may get very close. If anyone has any creative solutions I'm keen to hear them. The more outlandish the better :)
|
Eric
QLD Moderator
- Total Posts : 1117
- Scores: 280
- Reward points: 4319
- Joined: 2012/04/06 21:41:57
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/21 22:41:26
(permalink)
I've done some quick calcs on an online gear/tyre/rpm calculator and come up with the following results, assuming your rev limiter is 9000 and rolling tyre diameter is 620mm (235/40/17): Current S54 - 3.944 Final Drive 1st - 3.285 - 80kmh 2nd - 1.96 - 135kmh 3rd - 1.322 - 200kmh This is roughly in line with your first quoted figure of 90 in first. Turbo Gearbox - 4.285 Final Drive 1st - 3.23 - 75kmh 2nd - 1.913 - 127kmh 3rd - 1.258 - 194kmh Still much higher than the s2000 gearbox's top speed of 106kmh for 2nd. Remember, that's a 6 speed box though. I did a quick google and found a link of all K series gearboxes and their ratios. ( http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/MJ23FE/Tranny%20Gear%20Calculations/K-SeriesTransmissionTablev3-28-08re.jpg) Using the same tyre size and limiter, I used a K20A Y2M3: Final Drive 4.764 1st - 3.266 - 67kmh 2nd - 2.13 - 103kmh 3rd - 1.517 - 144kmh From memory, I think you can buy adapter plates to put a K series box on a F20C. Currently it is looking to be your best bet As far as I am aware, no one makes a custom final drive off the shelf. Hope this helps!
1990 SW20 Hardtop - Supercharged 2GR-FZE
|
sir_smeghed
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 71
- Scores: 6
- Reward points: 919
- Joined: 2017/04/10 22:53:24
- Location: Alexandra Hills, Queensland
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/22 00:05:02
(permalink)
Thanks! That is VERY useful... I didn't consider the K series boxes, will have to check and see how that impacts the mounts. In the meantime I will attack from another angle and start experimenting with Vtec activation points and see how much I can increase the active range. I believe there is a SuperSprint event at QR soon, probably be a good opportunity to have a play around. Purely scientific purposes, no intention whatsoever of enjoying myself. ;) A turbo or supercharger would fix this but I really want to keep this an NA setup if I can.
|
MCT_MR2
MR2 Deity
- Total Posts : 626
- Scores: 104
- Reward points: 4232
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: Melbourne Victoria Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/22 07:51:34
(permalink)
If you wanted to keep the current gearbox, to save on ****ing about, i believe someone 3 or so years ago sent an s54 final drive assembly to PAR engineering to have some 4.866 final drives made up. Maybe email them to see if they can make onr up for you. It would probably cost around 1-1100 to have made, and then there is the cost of fitting it. But, an e series swap is not great, its heavy and slow shifting, and you need a box, linkages, shafts. A k series box has you up for an adapter plate, box, custom shafts (byp could probably point you in the right direction)
So either way your probably a few thousand in, id freshen up the s54, fit an lsd and a 4.866 final drive and that would be the best bang for buck.
'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258 224.6KW @ 20PSI more to come......
|
sir_smeghed
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 71
- Scores: 6
- Reward points: 919
- Joined: 2017/04/10 22:53:24
- Location: Alexandra Hills, Queensland
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/04/22 13:03:21
(permalink)
Thanks MCT_MR2, I will talk to PAR engineering. I believe this is the solution I was hoping for! Like anyone I don't want to spend a lot of $$$, but considering how tidy this F20C conversion is I believe it would be a huge injustice to NOT do it properly. I don't think there will be any change out of $3000 but would consider it money well spent.
|
sir_smeghed
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 71
- Scores: 6
- Reward points: 919
- Joined: 2017/04/10 22:53:24
- Location: Alexandra Hills, Queensland
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/05/12 12:31:33
(permalink)
Hey Guys, I'm back again having done a fair bit more research. PAR Engineering can indeed fabricate the gearing I need (any ratio I want) but at a cost of $1980. My research has indicated that the "E" series boxes seem to be compatible with the "S" series boxes, and I have found some mention on US sites where they reference the use of the final gearing from the E250F box (4.933) but can't seem to confirm it's compatibility with the S54? Does anyone have any insight or can point me in the right direction? Thanks.
|
Eric
QLD Moderator
- Total Posts : 1117
- Scores: 280
- Reward points: 4319
- Joined: 2012/04/06 21:41:57
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/05/12 13:06:38
(permalink)
An engine that accepts an s54 box will generally be compatible with an e153. In that sense they are compatible
If you are asking if the e series final drive will fit in an s54, I highly doubt it. The e series boxes are substantially bigger than the s series.
1990 SW20 Hardtop - Supercharged 2GR-FZE
|
sir_smeghed
MR2 Aficionado
- Total Posts : 71
- Scores: 6
- Reward points: 919
- Joined: 2017/04/10 22:53:24
- Location: Alexandra Hills, Queensland
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/05/12 15:25:00
(permalink)
I'm finding a lot of chatter on Celica and Rav4 forums both in the US and UK and swapping "E" series diffs into the S54 seems to be fairly common, I can find plenty of references of the E250F option but can't find anything substantial. If I can't find someone who can say a definite yes or no then I will buy one of each and have a play, though this is not the most ideal scenario. (still better than forking out almost $2000 just for the gears, which will be a last resort)
|
Knightrous
MR2 Deity
- Total Posts : 2045
- Scores: 272
- Reward points: 5721
- Joined: 2011/04/07 19:51:15
- Location: .
- Status: offline
Re: Diff Ratios
2017/05/13 16:56:44
(permalink)
TBH, there is no cheap option for what you are chasing. While it's still not a simple solution, I would look at the EA60, EB60 or EB62 Toyota 6 Speed gearboxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_E_transmission#EB60They have a combination of crazy 1st gears and diff ratios that should allow you to get up on Vtek and stay there.
|