DamMR2T
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No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump = Blown Head Gasket?
After getting back from the 2016 MTC and removing my leaking Davies Craig booster water pump, I also wanted to confirm I had a thermostat and what temperature rating it was. I had been taking it easy and monitoring my coolant temp throughout MTC, which was in the 80s range day 1, with a peak of 91 at one stage. When idle on the track and waiting for a run it would reach higher 80s, but was lower 80s when actually driving. I could use my radiator waterspray for 5 seconds which would then drop it 10 degrees in about 10 seconds. I also stopped racing for half the day while I changed to another set of wheels due to too much understeer. On day 2, I topped up a little coolant in the morning and the day started off the same, but then after coming in to pits after a run, I left the car running and went for a walk for 5-10 minutes to get some water and when I returned noticed a puddle of coolant under the car which I traced back to coming out the overflow hose (and maybe radiator cap). Temps were still ok, low 80s, so kept it running longer and turned off car. Next session I went out and came back and noticed the same thing, and not wanting to risk anything decided I would rebleed the cooling system like many others were doing, thinking I had air in the system too. Thanks to some advice and help from Paul Brell and Geoff Fear I got this done, and my next session felt great, car seemed to be going much better, temps were even lower..in 70s, but then I came in after doing a full lap cool down. My temperatures started rising and got over 100, I finally found a working hose and sprayed the radiator while the engine was still running, and cleaned coolant off my exhaust too. Still concerned I took it on the road to get some flow into the radiator, but didn’t get 500m before having to turn around and roll back as the car wouldn’t go over 60kmh. I got back to my garage to see my Davies Craig pump had split and was leaking coolant out the seam. I then decided that was the end of racing for me. So after the essay, my questions. I found I didn’t have a thermostat, so assume my booster Davies Craig water pump runs constantly (otherwise it would be pushing against the thermostat). Should I replace my booster pump and thermostat? What are advantages and disadvantages of doing so, such as taking a long time to warm up and staying that way, bad fuel economy? Anyone else running a booster water pump?
post edited by DamMR2T - 2016/10/12 18:14:55
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Admin
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/01/26 08:09:08
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I just run a standard toyota water pump and a trd thermostat. I drilled a small hole in it just in case it does block so I will have some flow. I also have the large Mishimoto radiator. Everything else is standard and it doesn't overheat. My advice is to stay with standard parts unless you really have to change. The most reliable solution is always standard toyota.
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DamMR2T
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/01/27 21:58:10
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After talking to some of the guys at MTC (who have much more power than me, and are more track cars) I was leaning towards just replacing with a standard thermostat and be done with it. But after reading the benefits of an electric water pump, I'm thinking it will keep my engine under control better mainly due to point 1 below.' The Good - With the right ECU water can be circulated in direct proportion to a set temperature, even when only idling or switched off. The hotter the water then the faster it is pumped round the engine and this will assist with cooling. It also means that the pump is only running when it is actually required allowing the engine to warm up quickly and maintain an optimum operating temperature.
The Bad - Electric water pump will not last as long as a mechanical one.
- I think failure of an electric one can be more serious than a mechanical one.
- Should remove the existing water pump impeller and the thermostat.
I believe I still have the impeller as the car has always been listed with a "booster pump", but then again I thought wrong about the thermostat. I like the idea of a temperature controlled booster pump which also runs when idling or engine off, but it will be pushing against the impeller and thermostat. If I remove both of those then I risk the electric water pump failing without warning and cooking my engine.
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MCT_MR2
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/01/28 08:06:36
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I would have to assume you still either have a full, or ground down impellor on your mechanical water pump, as a booster pump cannot flow enough to maintain any kind of engine temps.
If you want to maintain the elec water pump idea, get a davis craig speed controller. They are designed to run one of their pumps with no thermostat, and run the pumps slowly/pulsed just enough to slowly circulate the water until it starts getting up to temp. These allow the engine to get up to temp quite quickly.
Booster pumps dont handle coolant pressure too well. I would personally recommend you jump on davis craigs website, as they rate their pumps in horsepower. You may find stepping up to an ewp 80 or ewp110 is what you need.
The best thing about this combination of pump and controller, is they can circulated the water for a bit after you turn the engine off to prevent boiling.
'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258 224.6KW @ 20PSI more to come......
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DamMR2T
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/01/30 11:18:19
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What other good brands are there besides Davies Craig? I have been on their website, looking for a pump for a Frozen Boost W2A system. I've read the forum posts where many people have had their Davies Craig pumps fail, which makes me think maybe the alloy version might be better. Perhaps their quality has since improved, or all these people didn't mount it in the best spot to be primed or high heat. I would hate to pay for the alloy one and still have it fail in a similar way. It turns out my booster pump was an EWP. Is it possible to setup a warning light to detect when the pump has stopped working, what could you measure?
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stuka
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/01/30 20:45:54
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I have davies craig ewp on W2A and no dramas for a couple of years, very robust pump. I dont understand your booster system well, and assuming that the pump was throttled in some way leading to the pump housing split, the fact that the pump discharge pipe split rather than the impeller/motor giving up first is probaly a good sign for the quality of the rotating parts. with an alloy housing it should be better. purely my opnion of course!
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MCT_MR2
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/01/31 15:08:59
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I had one ewp80 pump leak out of the back seal, i havent split one yet. I have several high powered cars running the alloy bodied units. I think mounting needs to be considered carefully to ensure they last.
They are rated for 5 or 8000 hours of use, which is nowhere near rhe life of a mechanical pump, but im on my second pump in 6 years.
As for alternatives, i never really looked, as davis crai are made locally, and you can eaily pick them up at repco, bursons etc.
'88 MR2 4AGTE W/ EFR6258 224.6KW @ 20PSI more to come......
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Admin
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/01/31 15:49:24
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DamMR2T
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/02/02 22:47:04
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I should clarify what I mean by split. In the picture I have a garden hose pushing water through the pump (not that much pressure) but you can see where the water is coming out at a join which goes around the whole pump. Not sure if this is just a seal, can't see how you would replace it.  I have read EWPs should be replaced every 5-7 years, so maybe it's time was up. After further investigation I can confirm I don't have an impeller!!!, or its definitely been clipped (I can't see it but can definitely feel it, compared to another pump I have sitting around) so I will have to stick another EWP in there. Thanks Admin for that video, really showed me I need to test flow as you have done. I might even look for a something OEM out of another car, any idea what your big silver one is from? In terms of making sure it's primed, would you say putting it where the standard intercooler goes would be lower enough? That's where it was pumping straight into the engine, but I'm starting to think this isn't an ideal position for priming. I like where B24 has put his in the frunk, nice and low but you lose the spare wheel.
post edited by DamMR2T - 2016/02/03 23:06:05
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DamMR2T
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/10/12 18:20:49
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So the pump has been replaced with an alloy EWP130 and custom bracket made to sit it even lower in the system. Car drove great after replacement, although during the coolant top up process I noticed the following, and it has been sitting in garage for months and I would love to get it ready for MTC2017. 1. If taken for a 10 minute drive with some boost, then left sitting for 5 days and the coolant cap taken off to top up coolant, it overflows. You can hear the pressure just before the cap is fully released. The same 10 minute drive with no (very little) boost and 5 days, produces no coolant overflow from cap. 2. After some weeks, I also found milky substance under the oil cap. It was some time ago now in autumn/winter, but I think I cleaned it out and went for another boosted 10min drive and found the same milkiness. 3. Based on the above I then assumed I have a blown head gasket, my worst fear. It would seem my combustion chamber is leaking into my cooling system causing pressure to remain after boosted driving, and coolant is also entering my oil system, although the dipstick oil shows no milkiness. Could it be possible the milkiness is just condensation? A compression test (engine cold) shows 130,124,125,129. It also has a 110kpa coolant cap.  I’m about to drop the engine, shave the head and install a new head gasket, but was curious to hear any opinions. Anyone think it’s not a head gasket, that’s the only way I can explain the coolant pressure build up.
post edited by DamMR2T - 2016/10/12 18:42:08
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/10/12 19:21:26
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It certainly sounds like a blown head gasket 😪
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stuka
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/10/13 11:54:56
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☼ Best Answerby Dudeman 2016/10/15 20:18:50
David I would hate to see someone replace a head gasket only to realise it was an issue with the coolant system, or a cracked block. So here are some notes I made about testing the cooling system a while back. Some notes are borrowed from a guide by Ian Morrison (I hope you don’t mind Ian) posted in the MR2 Club Victoria magazine some time ago, and the rest I recorded myself based on my own experiences and discussions with other MR2 owners, some of which are members on this forum. Ian has a sticky guide which is in the technical forum. When refilling the MR2 cooling system, the motor should be switched off and cold. Do not attempt to run the motor while you are adding coolant unless you are a professional mechanic. Place a tight fitting funnel in the filler neck to help with filling and slowly pour new coolant into the filler hole until no more will go in. This may take some time and you may start to wonder if all that coolant you measured when draining out will ever go back in. But remember it needs to work it’s way in to fill all of that plumbing, especially through the bleeder rivet in the thermostat, so just stick with it and have patience. You should eventually see coolant in the bleed hoses at the front and some air bubbles. If not, open the bleed valves a bit more until you see coolant. The coolant level in the hoses should come up to the same level as the coolant level in the filler funnel. Also note you can bleed air from higher in the system by slightly opening the bolt on the thermostat housing, the bolt that takes a 17mm socket (I think). When there are no more bubbles and no more coolant will go in, leave it sitting for a few minutes. You may find the level has dropped further over this period. With the system full, close bleed valves, replace the pressure cap and tighten it to the first click only as recommended in the BGB (do not completely tighten). Start the engine and let it idle for about 2 minutes. Then stop the engine, take off the pressure cap, open the bleed valves again and top up while checking for bubbles in the service hoses. Air pockets can remain around the radiator area and squeezing the heater hoses either side of the radiator below the bonnet a few times will dislodge the air bubbles that otherwise might stay there. When there are no more bubbles in the service hose, close the bleed valves and repeat the previous sequence again with the pressure cap still on the first click. Do this as often as required until you reach the stage where you have added almost the same amount that you originally drained out, then fully tighten the pressure cap, and take the car for a run for at least ten minutes. When testing the system make sure that the thermostat has fully opened. You can tell that the thermostat has opened when fluid entering the radiator (left hand passenger side) is a few degrees hotter than the other side. If the other side (right driver side) does not get hot then you may have an air bubble blocking flow through the radiator. As I have a coolant temperature gauge, I disconnect the radiator cooling fans to make sure the coolant gets up to 95 degrees meaning the thermostat is or should be fully open, you just need to keep an eye on the temperature to make sure you don’t overheat the engine with the fans disconnected. You will need to switch the motor off and wait for it to cool down before taking the pressure cap off to check the level, but at this stage if you have managed to refill the same amount as was originally drained out you can be fairly sure that it will be close to full. Top up at the filler cap as required. Don’t keep opening the pressure cap and topping up that little last bit over a few days as most people do, you need to let the system stabilise over a number of days. Changes in ambient temperature and atmospheric pressure can make a difference to the coolant level behaves. The coolant in the plastic overflow bottle should be siphoned out and refilled with new coolant up to the ‘full’ mark on the side of the bottle. The mark is approx 300 mm below the top of the filler neck. You should also check that the overflowed coolant when the engine is hot returns to the system when cold. Let the car fully cool and then check that the cooling system is full, it should draw back any expanded fluid back into the system from the overflow bottle. When the engine is all topped and cool, remove the overflow bottle, empty it and clean it thoroughly so you can observe the level of fluid in there afterwards – note the overflow bottle is a **** to get out but knowing the fluid returns to the same level each time the engine is cool is a critical sign of a well functioning system. You would be better off trying to clean the outside face of the bottle while its on the car, you can reach it from top and bottom to give a good clean although often the internal surface of the bottle can be very dirty due to years of having coolant in it so you cant see the coolant level even after you have cleaned the outside. If you do take out the bottle best way to clean the internal surface is with some water and sand/gravel and give it a good shake, making sure you get all the sand/gravel out afterwards! You would be surprised how much crap builds up inside the bottle. If it the system is not drawing the coolant back, try threading a thinner hose (I used a hard plastic hose) through the existing hose. The smaller diameter should help the fluid to be drawn back in easier. A bit like sucking fluid through a straw rather than a pipe if that makes sense. If the system is still not drawing fluid then it there is most likely a leak somewhere as the system is in vacuum it is sucking in air rather than fluid. Start by taking off the radiator and having it checked and new o-rings on drain and bleed taps. Take the fans off and then the radiator. You are better off cutting off the rubber hoses otherwise you might bend the end tank hard lines trying to get them off. When the radiator is removed, bridge the gap with a couple of hoses and hard pipe and run coolant system cleaner through the system. Thoroughly flush with tap water, bleeding the system as best you can without the radiator in place. Empty the water from the system and then with garden hose thoroughly flush the radiator lines and block. When this is done use a cooling system pressure tester before you put new coolant in. Any leaks will show up more with air rather than water. Spray water on hose/hard line joints, radiator and fittings to engine to see if any air is bubbling, if significant you might hear the air bubbling the water. The system should hold pressure for 2 hours at least, otherwise you may have a leak. When fitting radiator, use new hoses. Put the hoses on the radiator first and then fit in place. If you are having trouble getting the hose on the hard lines, the hard lines can be loosened to give you a bit of wiggle room. Get a coolant funnel or lisle spill free funnel, they are great. Also a coolant temperature gauge (or ECU if you can dial in from laptop) is important to understand that thermostat is working properly i.e. hoses either side of radiator are hot. Also pressure test your pressure cap, they should be replaced every 2 years.
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5SGTE
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/10/14 22:57:08
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Very well said, good on you for taking the time to write that, thanks.
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DamMR2T
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/10/15 16:50:17
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Wow, thanks for the essay Pat. I also use Ians guide, as it clarifies a couple of points in the BGB. After MTC 2016 I bought one of the Coolant Filler kits with a valve, after seeing you used one. When I fill coolant I leave the filler in place for days (and 2 bleed pipes open) to let the coolant slowly go in. During the week or so, I keep it topped up and keep squeezing/pumping the radiator pipes at the front to try get the air out. I don’t have a thermostat in this car, so should make it a little easier not having to worry about the thermostat rivet. I have also tried: * Turning on external water pump (with engine cold) while trying to pour coolant in slowly * Bleeding it while engine is running like shown at MTC (letting coolant come out of 2 front bleeder pipes and then putting it back in the filler making sure the filler doesn’t suck any air). I have also recently done another standard engine swap (with thermostat) and had to bleed the coolant where I had no issues, so must be doing some things right. I haven’t tried the nut on the thermostat housing, so might give that a go too. All the time I am driving I’m constantly looking at the ECU coolant temperature and can see when the radiator fans kick in to keep it at the default 85 degrees. Obviously takes a while to warm up without thermostat too, but I can control this by flicking a switch to turn the electric pump off. Perhaps one thing I am not doing that you mentioned, is every time I go for a drive I top up that extra little bit first. I will try bleeding it all one last time making sure I clean the overflow first to also monitor that and put on OEM radiator cap. In terms of the milky oil cap I can check this more often too, as the car won’t be sitting for long periods and I therefore won’t be able to attribute it to simply condensation, and would then be the head gasket.
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kojab
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Re: No Thermostat and Split Davies Craig water pump.
2016/10/16 08:12:34
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92' SW20 3SGTE GEN2 GT Hardtop Holden Ls1 ECU 87' AW11 3SGTE Delco EFI ECU & 21 psi boost 71' KE25 3TGTE Delco EFI ECU Standard engine 24 psi boost 78' KE55 L67 Delco EFI ECU
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