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MR2QIK
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/17 23:51:24 (permalink)
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I run Power FC, not Haltech. My previous AW11 had Haltech. There is a bit of work, but in my case the machining & block modifications came out cheaper than the price of Darton sleeves (assuming they're $1k). Happy to refer you to my builder & share the knowledge/instructions I gave in preparation if you or anyone takes that road.

I had a thread documenting my previous builds/results but honestly can't find it. Stock block setup, forged 2L build, sleeved 3S stroker. Though I'm sure Dart sleeves are good, there's still fundamental weaknesses with the 3S block. 5S has more meat, the water gallery isn't open like the 3S between cylinders 2 & 3 & its also stronger towards the water pump area too from memory. Years of development & many cracked blocks led the 3S/MR2 world to 5S blocks. I can go on for ages but knew someone local that cracked many different 3S blocks (5 at least from memory). Sleeved, filled, Gen2, Gen3, NA, minimum 20 thou bore, 40 thou overbore. He gave up & bought a Porsche....lol

As for ebc, quite common not to use optional ecu boost control modules due to extra features of many ebc's (eg multiple presets). I run wg pressure ~15psi, low preset of 18 & high of 21ish psi.

5SGTE is right, don't forget to plug the feed.

MR2QIK - "The Little Car That Could"



320rwkw @ 19psi (pump fuel, no giggle gas)
11.96 @ 116mph (with 228rwkw)
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/20 08:50:27 (permalink)
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Wolf ecu has a ecu,loom and base map for Mr2's. Also have some great tuners supporting it.
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MR2QIK
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/20 13:17:09 (permalink)
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Wolf has left a bad taste in a few mouths. Greg included. 2 other former club members had them & could never get the results.

MR2QIK - "The Little Car That Could"



320rwkw @ 19psi (pump fuel, no giggle gas)
11.96 @ 116mph (with 228rwkw)
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/20 17:24:02 (permalink)
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I have a bad taste in my mouth after spending a lot of money only to have the engine break after having it tuned at Hitman. Timing was never checked or anything else. The engine didn't last 5 minutes after 100hours work. There are also many tuners who will not use Haltech for whatever reasons. Even heard the Vipec II is falable and just about everything else on the market depending on the tuner/installation.
So yes there are stories for every instance. The later model Wolf seems to be working quite well for a few running the 2GR-FE so its not all bad.
Phil Armour(trained the 'original' Hitman) tunes the Wolf along with Haltech/Motec. He is a very fussy bugger so if he will work with it, it must not be a dead loss.
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Mrskylighter
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/20 22:53:23 (permalink)
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Over the past 15 years of MR2 ownership I don't think I've heard of a single happy owner running a Wolf on a 3s. Seems people buy the ecu, get crappy results then wanna get rid of it for something else.
I've only ever had cars with an Apexi Power FC or my very first car where I installed a basic Microtec ecu. I wouldn't hesitate to use a Haltech in the future if the need ever arises.
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MR2QIK
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/22 16:54:37 (permalink)
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Understand your feedback Steve, but Matt "Hitman" didn't tune your car. What was your engine failure directly linked to? Personally, I like having a builder/tuner linked together as there's more accountability that way. Rob took a good approach.

I agree with Nick, that many bad tastes of the Wolf is enough to stay away. Phil maybe good (never seen his work), but since he initially "trained" Matt, a lot of experience was gained since then. I know of many dozens of high powered 4 bangers & rotaries that still pur along to this day as a result of his work. Many on this forum still run his tune.

As for tuners & Haltech, I HIGHLY doubt any would stay away from a PS1000. If they do, they have stake in something else. Many abroad have even converted over simply based on the results & how easy they are to work with.

MR2QIK - "The Little Car That Could"



320rwkw @ 19psi (pump fuel, no giggle gas)
11.96 @ 116mph (with 228rwkw)
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track_mr2
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/22 18:43:31 (permalink)
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I ran a Wolf Version 4 3D in a 6 throttle body stroked 260z. It was fine, did everything perfectly well after being tuned right. ECU's most basic function of controlling injector pulses and ignition timing isn't hard as long as you have enough load points, correct sensors etc... which the Wolf does. It also handles all the sensors that are required and can handle calibration of sensors so if tuned right it wont cause any engine to blow. The issues people list are never related to the ECU its always related to the tuner or cheap sensors. When I first had my Z tuned I was really unhappy with it, it had a HUGE flat spot and it was tuned by a shop that tunes and runs a V8 supercar team, a very well known one. I then begged speed tech to tune the car whom had stopped working on cars and when he agreed to do it and tuned the car it was perfect, flat spot gone, better power through the rev range and everything (ignition timing was not aggressive enough he said, it resembled the base map that comes preloaded on the ECU). A lot of tuners just bang in a O2 sensor then map the air/fuel ratio not really understanding different engines or how to tune a car correctly. Most don't even know the accuracy of the O2 sensors they use even. It's best to pick a tuner you believe is up to the task based on there experience and results with similar engines to that your running, then go with the ECU they recommend. The guys that originally did mine deal with Motec hence why it was not tuned right initially, then when it went to Speed Tech and they know about Wolf's came out perfect.
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robk
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/22 21:43:49 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby Dudeman 2014/04/23 00:01:22
+3 (3)
The topic of ECUs always leads to interesting and heated debates, and everyone has their opinions about it. Unfortunately there is a huge amount of misinformation out there, plus rumours and stories which get blown out of proportion and quickly spread among friends and the internet.
 
I was an engineer in the aftermarket ECU industry in my previous job, doing everything from software to electronics to technical support, so I've had plenty of exposure to ECUs from various points-of-view.
Although I have only dealt with one workshop/tuner (MRC at Castle Hill) for my own car, I still have a good idea of how most tuners think and the kind of things they overlook, because I've provided tech support to MANY well-known tuners, both good and bad ones, each with varying experience in different ECU brands.
 
Ultimately the ECU is in charge of everything that happens in the engine, so even if you have all the best mechanical parts, they will be let down if you have a poor tune and/or a poor ECU. However, as track_mr2 said, the most critical functions of an ECU are mostly the same (and very stable) for all ECU brands...provided that the ECU is set up correctly by the tuner! The quality of technical support is actually one of the most important factors when choosing an ECU brand, because that can make the difference between 2 almost-identical ECUs from 2 different brands.
 
In my opinion and experience, the majority of reported 'ECU problems' are actually tuner problems. Sometimes they have a lacking understanding of one or more important ECU settings, sometimes they run out of patience/interest/time, sometimes they forget about something trivial but crucial, sometimes they make costly and time-wasting diagnostic errors, sometimes the manufacturer fails to provide them with sufficient support, and sometimes the owner of the car makes it much worse by pressuring the tuner and/or providing innaccurate and conflicting feedback about problems with their engine.
Often a tuner (or vehicle owner mucking around with their ECU settings) will ignore or change a crucial ECU setting, and not realise the importance because they don't understand that particular setting. Sometimes that same lack of understanding will also prevent them from ever mentioning or questioning that particular (crucial) setting when trying to get help in diagnosing a problem, so they can end up barking up the wrong tree.
 
Occasionally an ECU will have a real firmware bug or electronic issue, and this can happen with ANY brand, but this situation is far rarer than people seem to think. Also, an actual ECU problem can often be solved quite easily if the tuner bothers to seek support, and actually follows through on the advice offered to them by the manufacturer.
 
If a tuner has enough skill, time and patience, combined with a good attitude, then they should be able to get a great result out of almost any ECU (assuming that the ECU has the required feature list). If the tuner is using an ECU that they are familiar with, then of course it will be easier for them to meet those requirements. Having said that, if a tuner insists on using a particular ECU but they can't properly justify it, and/or they clearly don't have a strong enough all-round knowledge of ECUs, then be wary.
 
Just one more thing. I like to keep a detailed list of every little thing that needs to be done or checked on my car, and that even includes individual settings in my ECU! In my case the ECU is the one thing that I understand more than anything on my car, so I will admit that I'm more likely to do that compared to other people lol.
Even the best tuners can forget a small but important detail or step, but if you keep your own comprehensive checklist then you can be confident that everything will be accounted for in the end.
One of the reasons that my car's build/showroom thread has grown to be so enormous (apart from my regular and sometimes amusing indecisiveness), is because I also use it as an additional medium for 'recording' my thoughts and the progress on my car. It sort of acts as a history of my past checklists, so in the near future I only need to worry about a small to-do list.
 
I hope that helps!

There is an extensive build thread for my car here: http://www.mr2australia.com/mr2play/tm.aspx?m=18316
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/23 09:34:58 (permalink)
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MR2QIK
Understand your feedback Steve, but Matt "Hitman" didn't tune your car. What was your engine failure directly linked to? Personally, I like having a builder/tuner linked together as there's more accountability that way. Rob took a good approach.

I agree with Nick, that many bad tastes of the Wolf is enough to stay away. Phil maybe good (never seen his work), but since he initially "trained" Matt, a lot of experience was gained since then. I know of many dozens of high powered 4 bangers & rotaries that still pur along to this day as a result of his work. Many on this forum still run his tune.

As for tuners & Haltech, I HIGHLY doubt any would stay away from a PS1000. If they do, they have stake in something else. Many abroad have even converted over simply based on the results & how easy they are to work with.

Yes Jay, I know Matt did not tune the car but if you are going to stick a car on a dyno you must do some checks before running it at 8000 rpm. Im not saying it was the tuners fault it mechanically broke but he did not take due care in his work. The 2GR will be build by my machinist this time round, wiring by SX developments then tune to be confirmed in the future.  I was talking with Phil some time back where he mentioned his training of Matt. I don't want to get too off subject but I guess its best for you to ask Matt to confirm this.
I have no problem with the Haltech or the Wolf or any for that matter as I am sure all ECU's had there failings at some point which is the message I am expressing. The facts as I see it: Charlie and 3 other 2 GR owners in Victoria have the Wolf and have been tuned by a tuner who works with all ECU's. They are getting good results. When Charlie asked about converting to Motec the answer was ' waste of time' as the new generation Wolf is a world away from the older units which have created this poor reputation with 3SGTE owners. So, I don't thinks it fair to kick something which was not perfect in the its earlier incarnation.
 
Right now people are really spoilt for choices with ECU's but not for tuners. There are plenty our there, but not many good ones. I do agree that the PS1000 is an great package due to aftermarket support and plenty of tuners who enjoy working with the product. If I didn't change to V6, I would have kept mine.
 
 
 
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/23 09:37:44 (permalink)
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Well said Rob
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MR2QIK
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Re: ECU decissions 2014/04/23 15:56:18 (permalink)
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No point asking Matt about Phil's training. Kinda like asking Usain Bolt who taught him to walk.....lol
 
I won't dispute/defend if Maroun failed to do some basic checks (call him & politely raise the issue with him). I've seen that happen in many places. Experience has always taught me to give my cars a "trial" period after tune & go back to the tuner immediately with any issues/concerns. Only slowly do I rebuild my confidence after a tune. I've also learned to give a detailed instruction/checklist along with my keys. When I had Matt tune my car before, I gave him the engine specs (comp, rpm limit, hardware list etc), engine weaknesses (block), concerns & a list of things to double check (timing, boost etc). I'd been screwed that many times in the past.
 
My advice to you Steve, is to try limit the amount of involvement in your build to allow for some ownership/accountability. My ideal scenario (unless they price silly) is for the builder to be linked to the tuner. Avoids finger pointing & if something goes wrong, they basically have no choice but to rectify the error without dispute. Obviously no one will give a firm warranty, but you do get some inherit protection.
 
I'm not gonna "kick" the Wolf, but I wouldn't be willing to gamble on it either. Everything comes back to finding a trusted/experienced tuner & going with their recommendation/preference. As Rob said so very well, they all do basically the same thing, some are more familiar than others & the level support for inevitable "issues" is essential. Hence why I'd tend to go with the more mainstrain ecu's (Hitman also does Haltech support I believe).

MR2QIK - "The Little Car That Could"



320rwkw @ 19psi (pump fuel, no giggle gas)
11.96 @ 116mph (with 228rwkw)
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