2011/05/22 14:31:32
just_ace
yeh..um...what he said.
 
E85WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
 
still dont have any over here......gggrrrrrrr!
2011/05/22 19:15:14
MuMan
Cogs, you make some good points.
One thing I'm not so sure about is the fact that we are burning Ethanol in solution with 98, and need to consider the ign properties accordingly, rather than in isolation. I would expect the unburned fuel in the form of HC emissions is vaporising in the exhaust manifold (~1100degF) after the combustion process. Obviously as the mix ratio increases (well beyond what we are talking about) the ign process becomes more critical, and incomplete combustion could become a factor, on the stock ign system at least.
In relation to VE, I'm not referring to the engines ability to ingest more air, but the effect of the additional O2 in the combustion mix effectively generating a higher volume of exhaust gas, hence more power, better spool. Same intake volume..more exhaust volume if you will.
 
Anyhow, not wanting to rant on, but I've now tried this blend on several JDM n/a cars to gauge the result without needing to consider the effect of boost. It's not been a comparative test as such, as I've limited the mix to 10% to keep AFR's in check.
The results in all 3 cases have been similar, although in varing degrees, but no where near the level I found on the 3SGTE.
In all 3 cases there was an improvement in general driveability, acceleration and responsiveness. In the case of a 6A12 & EJ20 more and quicker revability and with a RB25DE a much stronger feeling of low to mid range torque. In all cases there's been that perceived feeling of more power..maybe it's the boost in low/mid range torque causing that..need to be dyno'd to draw any conclusions.
By comparison, the gains I saw on the gen3/gt28/71 were almost jaw dropping when boosting up to 20psi, even in relation to my 98 performance tune. Also on the gen2 at 14psi the car just wanted to keep boosting (not bad for a lowly ct26) and I was more worried about the HG than anything else. I'd love to drop in a set of gen3 540's with fuel mods and up the mix ratio.
There really is big gains available here, for anyone wanting to stay with the stock ECU rather than go standalone, but there are limits of course, so a dyno tune on a gen2 with MHG & fuel mods is about the only way of determining where they lay.
Of course anyone with a standalone, or fuel/ign controller..sky's the limit where blends are concerned.
 
BTW, there was a very noticeable increase in power in all 3 cars during cold ambient temps, suggesting possibly AFR's were still very rich..just don't know how rich. 
2011/05/22 21:45:43
cogs
I'm somewhat envious MuMan that you have access to a few suitable cars for subjective testing.  Kudos for doing as much as you have and giving everyone the benefit of your research   It really does seem that low level E85 blends hold real benefits for the performance scene, but I'm still a little concerned about the long term effects on non-ethanol compatible fuel system components.  Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that even to run low level blends requires significant fuel system upgrades for long term reliability.  It almost seems negligent on the part of the oil companies not to make this information more available, given that 10% ethanol blends are commonplace.
2011/05/23 10:27:00
purple5ive
well a failure for 100ron shell racing fuel for me (ther dont sell it there anymore) and also another failure on E85 (same story dont stock it or never heard of it)
 
2011/05/23 11:38:35
MRTurbo
purple5ive: As mentioned earlier, Shell V-Power Racing has been phased out since 2008.
who did you ask? the console operator at your local servo? I bet you can get it in Melbourne and she's heard of it below.
Email Maybelle Reyes - Biofuels Marketing Manager, Caltex Australia Petroleum Pty Ltd
mreyes@caltex.com.au
 
You will then know the answer. 
 
2011/05/23 12:09:41
purple5ive
Thanks man iil email and see what response i can get
 
cheers
2011/05/23 13:37:34
matt234
Ok time for a silly question.. Will running the e85 at 80/20 in newer non-import engines have the same or any positives? Basically what im asking is will this be of any benefit in my 2gr since their ecu was tuned to run 95 octane?
2011/05/23 16:09:26
MuMan
Short answer, no I wouldn't suggest it. All these other cars have been tuned for JDM fuel, and there's a lot to be gained by running 100 RON or better. If the 2gr is tuned for 95 RON and your running that or 98, there wouldn't be anything to be gained by getting to 100 RON, without a re-tune. There are other gains coming from the properties of the fuel itself, but in your case I'd think AFR's would be close to a safe margin already. 
You could give a 10% blend a try, being relatively safe (E10 compliant) and see what you get out of it.
2011/05/23 16:42:30
MuMan
Anyone interested in the effects of ethanol blended fuels, take a look at the extract from MHR below, that lists 4 points, that seem to have become accepted as the 4 issues involving blended fuels. There's a lot to be said everywhere, but when you look at chemlab results and industry testing (such as Brazil's E20 & E25) you soon come to realise these 4 issues are factual.
 
 
1.Water - Ethanol has a great affinity with water. Most metal components in fuel systems will corrode or rust in the presence of water. Fuel blended with 10% Ethanol will increase the quantity of water it can absorb without separating out. It is important to note that the addition of Ethanol doesn't suddenly create water out of nowhere, but tends to "pickup" water more easily throughout the transportation and storage phase of its distribution to end users. It is generally accepted that 10% blends do not pose a significant risk of fuel system corrosion in everyday use, as Ethanol blends have increased quantities of anti-corrosion additives found in normal un-blended fuels.
2.Fuel System Contaminants - 10% Ethanol blends can cause problems with cars that already have a heavily contaminated fuel system to begin with. Ethanol can act like a solvent, scouring gum, varnish, dirt and water from the insides of fuel tanks and fuel lines, leading to clogging fuel filters more regularly until contaminants are cleaned from the system.
3.Material Incompatibility - Older cars can be at risk of accelerated wear of rubber, cork and certain plastic fuel system components, but these very same components are equally at risk when used with fuels containing high levels of toluene, the additive primarily responsible for improving the octane rating of unleaded fuel.
4.Fuel consumption - Ethanol has a lower energy content when compared to petrol, requiring a slightly higher volume of fuel to be burned in order to provide the same amount of power. In theory, an engine using a 10% blend should consume 3.8% more fuel. This is somewhat offset by a sligh improvement in efficiency, but is very much dependant on the type of engine.
Now for the good news. As demonstrated by the fuel tests, significant performance gains can be made by using a 10% Ethanol blend. This is becuase Ethanol is an oxygen rich fuel, and this assists with improving the combustion process. Most importantly the addition of Ethanol improves resistance to detonation, which is good news in a turbocharged car such as the WRX and Evo. The ECU in the WRX will respond to improved fuel quality and will increase the maximum amount of ignition advance generating more power. As a general rule of thumb, 95 RON unleaded fuel blended with 10% Ethanol will achieve an octane rating of between 97.5 and 98.5 RON.
2011/05/23 17:30:56
matt234
MuMan

Short answer, no I wouldn't suggest it. All these other cars have been tuned for JDM fuel, and there's a lot to be gained by running 100 RON or better. If the 2gr is tuned for 95 RON and your running that or 98, there wouldn't be anything to be gained by getting to 100 RON, without a re-tune. There are other gains coming from the properties of the fuel itself, but in your case I'd think AFR's would be close to a safe margin already. 
You could give a 10% blend a try, being relatively safe (E10 compliant) and see what you get out of it.

 
Thanks, pretty much what i gathered from what id read. Back to saving pennies for a new ECU.
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