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  • Knightrous' House of AW11 (and SW20, and ZZW30) (p.2)
2010/03/22 16:58:37
Knightrous
quote:
Originally posted by RobYob

Isn't it the S54 box that you do the 5g extenion to WoB? You swap in a Corolla diesel 5th gear.


RobYob is correct, extended 5th gear is for S54.
quote:
Originally posted by WOB
so your not burning masive amounts of fuel doing a 100kph cruise.


I won't be wasting heaps of fuel because I'll tune it to suit the cruising rpm. E153 is also heavier then S54, which is more weight over the ass end, I'm not building a porsche/vw here
2010/03/23 11:31:47
RobYob
Extra weight in the engine bay of an Adub is close to the centre of gravity anyway, so it's not like hanging a big mass in the Rse of an old 911.
How are you going to tune the engine to use less fuel at the revs you'll be pulling on the HWY? You've still got 3 litres spinning away at 3200rpm.
I want to do the 5th gear mod to my S54 just don't have the $500 spare to do it atm. I should try and organise a group buy through twobrutal or something.

Keep us updated on the build, the more mk1.5s and 1.6s the BETTER!
2010/03/23 13:44:28
Knightrous
quote:
Originally posted by RobYob
How are you going to tune the engine to use less fuel at the revs you'll be pulling on the HWY? You've still got 3 litres spinning away at 3200rpm.



From my understanding (I'm happy to be proved wrong here), fuel usage is more related to engine load then engine rpm. Even though the motor will be running at a higher rpm, it will have less load due to mechanical advantage (more gearing).

The main reason I believe manufacturers aim for low rpm cruising is purely for less mechanical wear, lower road noise (big thing these days) and emissions (less gas flow, less pollutants). Majority of the V6 conversion run standard ecu's so they don't have provision to go and change the fuel, ignition and AFR's to suit the higher cruising rpm. So they look to lower the 5th gear ratio to bring it closer to the automatic transmissions cruising speed (and the standard ecu's maps).
2010/03/23 15:49:26
Domma_aw11
hey man, i didnt know u came this far already!!! AWSOME stuff man... please keep sendin the knowledge and pics up!!!
2010/03/23 17:45:03
RobYob
quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous
From my understanding (I'm happy to be proved wrong here), fuel usage is more related to engine load then engine rpm. Even though the motor will be running at a higher rpm, it will have less load due to mechanical advantage (more gearing).


I've always thought the opposite although it's not my area of expertise. Cruise at 100km/h requires very little power afaik, 30kW or something, so as long as your engine can deliver the requisite torque at whatever rpm you choose to run you should benefit from running as low an rpm as possible, though obviously this isn't compatible with good performance feel.

New V8 Commodes run both cylinder deactivation and intergalactic gearing for economy

quote:
The main reason I believe manufacturers aim for low rpm cruising is purely for less mechanical wear,
pretty sure that's not the case, lowering rpm, running less trans slip and lower lockup speeds are all ways to get better economy.

quote:
lower road noise (big thing these days)
that IS my area expertise and it's got nothing to do with low rpm engine operation and a lot to do with tyre construction and suspension bushes.

quote:
and emissions (less gas flow, less pollutants)
Less gas flow = less fuel used = better economy.

quote:
Majority of the V6 conversion run standard ecu's so they don't have provision to go and change the fuel, ignition and AFR's to suit the higher cruising rpm.
I don't think you're really free to alter your AFRs to much even with an after market ecu, run to lean and you burn your exhaust valves do you not?

quote:
So they look to lower the 5th gear ratio to bring it closer to the automatic transmissions cruising speed (and the standard ecu's maps).

ecu calibration is usually independent of the gear selected though, all it worries about is rpm and load.

Not trying to deliberately contradict you, but want to learn your thoughts on this.
2010/03/23 19:16:11
cogs
quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous
From my understanding (I'm happy to be proved wrong here), fuel usage is more related to engine load then engine rpm.


Fuel usage is very much related to engine load AND RPM, however contrary to your thoughts SPECIFIC fuel consumption decreases with increasing engine load. By specific fuel consumption I am referring to the fuel flow rate per kilowatt of engine power produced, ie. it could be expressed by the unit l/s.kw (litres per second per kilowatt).

So why is that? - I'm glad you asked! (any of you olds out there remember The Curiosity Show??)

Firstly, there's the matter of internal friction in the engine. An engine running under no load (free revving) is still burning fuel but producing no usable power - the specific fuel consumption is therefore infinite. All the power the engine is producing is being used to overcome its own friction. Now from this point if you start to increase throttle but maintain RPM by putting load on the engine you start to bring down the specific fuel consumption. As load increases more the proportion of engine power overcoming friction reduces, further reducing specific fuel consumption. Once under full load the engine's friction only consumes a small percentage of the total power produced. Higher RPMs also equate to more friction, and more power required to overcome this before any useful power is available.

Secondly, there's the fact that fuel mix compressed to a higher pressure prior to combustion produces usable pressure in the cylinder for a higher proportion of the expansion stroke. This is why diesel engines are so fuel efficient, and also why high compression petrol engines return better economy than equivalent low compression engines. Cylinder pressures increase with increasing engine load, which due to the more efficient extraction of energy from the burning fuel results in lower specific fuel consumption too.

Now to throw a big spanner in the works, specific fuel consumption under constant load also tends to follow a similar curve to the engine's torque vs. RPM curve. As volumetric efficiency increases so too does the engine's ability to extract the available energy from the burning fuel.

The net effect of these factors is that the engine will have an RPM point where specific fuel consumption is at its best for cruise, and this will be very low - close to the point where the torque curve starts to flatten after its initial rise from zero. It may take 35kw to maintain a steady 100km/h cruise, and unless it has wild cams any engine will use less fuel producing the required 35kw at 2000RPM than it will at 3000RPM, because it is fighting less internal engine friction and burning fuel more efficiently at higher pressure.

I'd also like to add my 2c to the E153 vs. S54 debate in regards to fitting a 3SGTE. You don't HAVE to use an E153, and indeed a V6 will be just as capable of breaking an S54 as a 3SGTE. Breaking these boxes happens as a result of abuse, so which box you choose depends on how you intend to drive. If you want to dump the clutch at 6000RPM you're gonna break things eventually, but an S54 will take the torque of a mildly tuned 3SGTE forever if it's treated with respect.
2010/03/23 20:09:34
RobYob
What cogs says

Adding to the gearbox comment the S54 has stood up remarkably well to four years attached to a Gen3 turbo motor. And while I have raced and hill climbed the car I try not do anything to abusive.
2010/03/24 09:14:51
Knightrous
Interesting comments in there Cogs, some real food for thought. Will see how I go with the fuel economy
2010/03/24 09:44:45
Whore of Babylon
Updated my post of failness back on page one :P

I think all engines have a sweet spot where they are most efficient, uk peeps have found the "Needs conformation ->" 2.2ltr camry 5th gear very sucessful on helping fuel economy.
2010/03/24 21:10:16
5SGTE
Im sure we dont do all this modding to get better fuel economy, you'll be giving crap all the time anyway!
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